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Old 10-27-2007, 03:00 PM
 
17,279 posts, read 24,965,630 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
Lots of food for thought here. Illegal immigration is only part of the reason for concern, but the existence of the American middle class is a huge part of what makes America such a "livable" place, so free (so far, at least) from the murderous class hatreds that exist in so much of the world. We don't (yet) have to arm ourselves, or live in gated communities...yet.... because, so far, most of us don't seriously hate and resent each other. That's because the huge middle class gives "comfort" to the rich, and a reasonable hope to the poor.

Take away that "middle class" segment of society, and much of the security we take for granted disappears. Anyone who's traveled abroad has seen this all too well. Not a pleasant way to live, believe me---but that's what happens, when society consists only of the very rich and the desperately poor. Could it happen here? Probably, if we don't take precautions.

Yeap. And part of the reason why it IS becoming so much of an issue these days is BECAUSE illegal immigration is starting to effect the middle class.

The poorer classes have always been ignored. Back in the early 1900s, we didn't have social welfare, we didn't care if 20 people shacked up in a tenament apartment, and if people had kids, they didn't have the government assistance. That's why its a disingenuous argument to say, "back in 1910 millions of people came here too."

With the emergence of the social welfare state, however, the American people see resources meant for legal Americans and INVITED immigrants diverted to pay for other people's problems. Be it schools, hospitals, or prisons.

It's kind of like taking in a foster child on your own volition, and then having people sneak into your garage to have kids after they learn about your generosity to that foster child.
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Old 10-27-2007, 03:01 PM
 
Location: California
3,432 posts, read 2,158,301 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TriMT7 View Post
Yeap. And part of the reason why it IS becoming so much of an issue these days is BECAUSE illegal immigration is starting to effect the middle class.

The poorer classes have always been ignored. Back in the early 1900s, we didn't have social welfare, we didn't care if 20 people shacked up in a tenament apartment, and if people had kids, they didn't have the government assistance. That's why its a disingenuous argument to say, "back in 1910 millions of people came here too."

With the emergence of the social welfare state, however, the American people see resources meant for legal Americans and INVITED immigrants diverted to pay for other people's problems. Be it schools, hospitals, or prisons.

It's kind of like taking in a foster child on your own volition, and then having people sneak into your garage to have kids after they learn about your generosity to that foster child.
I thank Hoover for SS, not for Welfare. Its like my mom says in Spanish "Le das la mano, e te agaran el brazo". Translation: You lend them a hand, and they take your whole arm.
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Old 10-27-2007, 03:07 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,615,066 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TriMT7 View Post
Yeap. And part of the reason why it IS becoming so much of an issue these days is BECAUSE illegal immigration is starting to effect the middle class.

The poorer classes have always been ignored. Back in the early 1900s, we didn't have social welfare, we didn't care if 20 people shacked up in a tenament apartment, and if people had kids, they didn't have the government assistance. That's why its a disingenuous argument to say, "back in 1910 millions of people came here too."

With the emergence of the social welfare state, however, the American people see resources meant for legal Americans and INVITED immigrants diverted to pay for other people's problems. Be it schools, hospitals, or prisons.

It's kind of like taking in a foster child on your own volition, and then having people sneak into your garage to have kids after they learn about your generosity to that foster child.
Very good analogy--the "goodness" or "deservingness" of the illegals is really beside the point. Like I've always said, if you've got a big family, and a rotten, disobedient kid who's causing you problems and expenses, that does NOT mean you should have to take in your NEIGHBOR'S kid---even if the neighbor kid is nice and well-behaved. Your neighbor's kid is your neighbor's responsibility.....
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Old 10-27-2007, 03:10 PM
 
17,279 posts, read 24,965,630 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greatbasinguide View Post
The threat to the American Middle Class is hardly the result of illegal immigration. It is much more the result of government policies that make the super rich richer.
It's both.

Every illegal immigrant is coal for the capitalists fire.

I suggest you study some Cesar Chavez.
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Old 10-27-2007, 03:18 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,615,066 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TriMT7 View Post
It's both.

Every illegal immigrant is coal for the capitalists fire.

I suggest you study some Cesar Chavez.
Contrary to popular assumption, Chavez was no supporter of illegal immigration. He recognized it as an economic threat to his dream of a unionized farm labor force.
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Old 10-27-2007, 03:22 PM
 
17,279 posts, read 24,965,630 times
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Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
Contrary to popular assumption, Chavez was no supporter of illegal immigration. He recognized it as an economic threat to his dream of a unionized farm labor force.

Well, of course that is the point I was trying to get across.

People "in the trenches" feel the real effects, while feel good multi-cultis get to have philosophical discussions.
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Old 10-27-2007, 03:29 PM
 
Location: CA Coast
1,900 posts, read 1,707,816 times
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Caesar Chavez, Ah, yes, I remember him well, standing on the road in front of our home held back by the CHP and Sheriffs, a large loud speaker set up aimed at our house, this sainted man said, Hey, Mrs ****** Your 10 year old daughter ******* gets off the school bus right here, think she will live to see you?

Ah yes, a kind man, while I was in Vietnam defending this country he was threatening to kill my little sister. My family had to be escorted by Sheriffs deputies for months during the strikes.

And actually Chavez had many undocumented workers in his union, he also flew the Mexican flag at his rallies, not the US flag, yup, I visited them, not telling anyone my name.
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Old 10-27-2007, 03:40 PM
 
17,279 posts, read 24,965,630 times
Reputation: 8519
Quote:
Originally Posted by greatbasinguide View Post
Caesar Chavez, Ah, yes, I remember him well, standing on the road in front of our home held back by the CHP and Sheriffs, a large loud speaker set up aimed at our house, this sainted man said, Hey, Mrs ****** Your 10 year old daughter ******* gets off the school bus right here, think she will live to see you?

Ah yes, a kind man, while I was in Vietnam defending this country he was threatening to kill my little sister. My family had to be escorted by Sheriffs deputies for months during the strikes.

So your family exploited workers? Could explain your point of view, I suppose.

Never said he was kind, or even nice, but he was a worker advocate that knew the effects large amounts of illegal labor had on lower skilled and lower wage workers.
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Old 10-27-2007, 03:46 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,615,066 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greatbasinguide View Post
Caesar Chavez, Ah, yes, I remember him well, standing on the road in front of our home held back by the CHP and Sheriffs, a large loud speaker set up aimed at our house, this sainted man said, Hey, Mrs ****** Your 10 year old daughter ******* gets off the school bus right here, think she will live to see you?

Ah yes, a kind man, while I was in Vietnam defending this country he was threatening to kill my little sister. My family had to be escorted by Sheriffs deputies for months during the strikes.

And actually Chavez had many undocumented workers in his union, he also flew the Mexican flag at his rallies, not the US flag, yup, I visited them, not telling anyone my name.
Did not know these sordid details---though I might guess your location at that time. Chavez, no doubt, was as corrupt as any comparable union organizer---OR as any militant grower. Labor strife is notoriously ugly. It was an emotion-filled time of great conflict. I knew two of Chavez's "organizers" personally.

My only point was that, officially, he did recognize that the integrity of his union followers' security depended on keeping out cheaper outsiders---namely, illegal immigrants.

PS I believe his name was "Cesar"....
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Old 10-27-2007, 03:50 PM
 
Location: CA Coast
1,900 posts, read 1,707,816 times
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Forgive my latin,, you must remember that even then most of the field workers were undocumented. In my book he was an evil man.
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