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Old 10-24-2007, 10:16 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,615,066 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndfmnlf View Post
In an old thread, I asked members of this forum to define American culture. I don't think anyone put up a coherent definition of it. The reason is obvious: American culture is hard to pin down because it draws from a wellspring of sources. The English language can't be used to define it as English is itself evolving. The English we speak today is totally different from the English spoken at the time of Christopher Columbus. Heck, even some members of the anti-immigration crowd on this forum cannot spell simple English words correctly. Why should Hispanic immigrants be ostracized for failing to conform to "American culture" when those making the demands are themselves incapable of satisfying their own standards?
I could have sworn I saw several reasonable definitions of American culture...none of course, that a determined nay-sayer or skeptic couldn't discount, but that's true of many things. (Such as what is decency? What is fairness? What is poverty, or affluence? What is oppression? What is freedom?) ...But, at any rate, ndfmnlf, here's my challenge--YOU define the NON-American culture of your choice...pick any country you want...or MORE than one. You may be as brief, or as verbose as you choose. This will enlighten us, but more importantly, will let us know the standards to which you are holding US.

When THAT is done, and you've made yourself clear to us, I can guarantee you that a number of us will be glad to take the time out to try once again to point out to you just what American culture is---and is not. How about it? Fair enough?....

PS I know of at least one other person who started this "what is American culture" thread--it's a common tactic to say that that which one is violating, really "doesn't exist" anyway....(remember that when Bill Clinton was caught in his Oval Office escapade, he questioned the definition of "sex"..and when the unarmed Minutemen embarrassed Bush, and his weak and ineffectual handling of the border, he suddenly decided they were "vigilantes"....brilliant!)....but this other poster, as I now recall, simply ignored most of his respondents' anwers, rather than calling them "incoherent" as you did. For this reason, I'd like to hear your "coherent" explanation, as requested above; this will help me give you the cohetrent answer you need. Together, we'll get American culture defined....it DOES exist.

Last edited by macmeal; 10-24-2007 at 10:32 PM..
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Old 10-24-2007, 10:39 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,615,066 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by andreabeth View Post
And a few more:

major points:

1. Carlos Slim is #3 on the Forbes list of billionaires. (now I think he is #1)

2. Every dollar of US taxpayer's money that is spent providing sevices for illegals frees up a dollar of their money that can be sent to Mexico. Remittances were estimated at $20 billion in 2005 and this year may exceed the amount Mexico earns from oil exports for the first time.
Quote:
So when el Presidente Vicente Fox complains that the "dignity" of Mexicans living illegally in America requires that they receive free healthcare on the U.S. taxpayer's dime, he is really talking about increased remittances to keep their whole corrupt system afloat.
3. Mexico has the second-highest highest GDP in Latin America, second only to Brazil.

4.Forbes magazine reports 10 out of 26 Latin American billionaires were Mexican.

5. Mexico raises only 12% of it's revenus through taxation. (the US takes in 25-28% of GDP profit in taxes.)

6. An economist stated that it is up to Mexico to solve it's problems and that bascially the rich do not want to tax themselves.

7. Mexico's economy is the 10th largest in the world.

8. Freedom House notes $2.3 billion, approximately 1 percent-of the country's economic production, goes to officials in bribes. The poorest families paying nearly 14 percent of their income in bribes.

9. The International Institute for Management Development placed Mexico at 56 out of 60 economies ranked. There is an almost total lack of investment in everything from infrastructure to education. Mexico collects so little in taxes that it cannot even buy schoolbooks or pay its police decent salaries. Investing in it's future is out of the question.

Here is the link:
http://www.limitstogrowth.org/WEB-te...icoisrich.html (broken link)
(If this gets zapped the article is worth reading, it's not real long)
If these are "emotions", they seem pretty strong to me....is it possible they might be FACTS?....hmmmmmm Maybe we better go back to just EMOTIONS.....
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Old 10-24-2007, 10:39 PM
 
24 posts, read 38,416 times
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Ok, you want facts and not emotion? Here you go.

1) I say again, illegal aliens are just that, illegal. Every other countries' immigrants have to obtain citizenship legally, and it is NOT fair to them that Mexicans can skip the legal system all together. I don't care who supports them, it's still wrong, plain and simple. You have no way to justify that very simple fact.

2) Because you do not want illegal immigration does not make you a racist. I don't care where they come from, EVERYONE should have to go through the same process. Keep playing the race card, or again compare them to slaves, I guess you have to grasp for straws when you have no real arguement.

3) If you google the affect of illegal immigration, almost all posts you find are going to tell you how much the illegals are COSTING us. You will only find a few arguements that they are benificial.

4) The rise in population is a key factor to the rise in the cost of homes due the very simple concept of supply and demand. More people+not enough houses=higher home costs.

The point is you can try to mask the problem with your articles and arguements of all the good the illegals do here, but people are not blinded by your smoke screen. Illegal aliens are breaking the law, plain and simple, and you're never going to justify it to me. With no growth control and illegals coming into this country by the bushel, it will not be long before they out number the U.S. citizens. So answer me this greatbasinguide, with no smoke and mirrors, just an honest answer: How is it fair that immigrants from other countries MUST work to obtain citizenship, but it is acceptable for Mexicans to skip this legal process? How would you explain this to the Phillipino immigrant who studied for his citizenship test and was on a waiting list for many years to come to this country? Justify that to me, and maybe you'll have an arguement.
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Old 10-24-2007, 10:43 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,615,066 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paasche209 View Post
Ok, you want facts and not emotion? Here you go.

1) I say again, illegal aliens are just that, illegal. Every other countries' immigrants have to obtain citizenship legally, and it is NOT fair to them that Mexicans can skip the legal system all together. I don't care who supports them, it's still wrong, plain and simple. You have no way to justify that very simple fact.

2) Because you do not want illegal immigration does not make you a racist. I don't care where they come from, EVERYONE should have to go through the same process. Keep playing the race card, or again compare them to slaves, I guess you have to grasp for straws when you have no real arguement.

3) If you google the affect of illegal immigration, almost all posts you find are going to tell you how much the illegals are COSTING us. You will only find a few arguements that they are benificial.

4) The rise in population is a key factor to the rise in the cost of homes due the very simple concept of supply and demand. More people+not enough houses=higher home costs.

The point is you can try to mask the problem with your articles and arguements of all the good the illegals do here, but people are not blinded by your smoke screen. Illegal aliens are breaking the law, plain and simple, and you're never going to justify it to me. With no growth control and illegals coming into this country by the bushel, it will not be long before they out number the U.S. citizens. So answer me this greatbasinguide, with no smoke and mirrors, just an honest answer: How is it fair that immigrants from other countries MUST work to obtain citizenship, but it is acceptable for Mexicans to skip this legal process? How would you explain this to the Phillipino immigrant who studied for his citizenship test and was on a waiting list for many years to come to this country? Justify that to me, and maybe you'll have an arguement.
Still MORE facts? This really is getting tedious. Let's show him how his FACTS are wrong, guys!.......(hint--we'll use our EMOTIONS to show him what a big MEANIE he is ! Facts, schmacts, I know what I know SO THERE)......
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Old 10-25-2007, 01:11 AM
 
635 posts, read 1,559,968 times
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I know Jesus loves illegal immigrants regardless of their legal status like I know he loves every human being, including me and you! So I choose to love people regardless of law breaking habits! With that said, grew up in California, know many illegal immigrants who are good and honest people! By many, I mean over a 100!
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Old 10-25-2007, 01:48 AM
 
Location: where you sip the tea of the breasts of the spinsters of Utica
8,305 posts, read 11,811,100 times
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Quote:
According to data gathered in the report, Hispanic immigrants paid $1.6 billion in state and local taxes in Nevada in 2005. Hispanic immigrants make up 18 percent of the Clark County work force, the report states.
Quote:
Pro-immigration people stress that immigration is positive, a net economic benefit, and in a $13 trillion economy, 1% is $13 billion. Anti-immigrant people stress that immigration adds $13 billion, or about two weeks' growth in an economy growing 2.5% a year.

Economists agree that the immigration generates a small net economic benefit for the U.S.
and in doing so redistributes income from workers to owners of capital and land.
Whether or not they're "good" people, whether or not they're a net asset to the economy, is irrelevant. If you don't like the immigration laws, work to overcome them with the democratic process. Until then the laws should be enforced, even though they're not liked by most of the wealthy individuals and corporations who basically own this country (which of course is WHY the laws are not enforced).

There's been a vast influx of illegals these last few years, far more than previously. Someone has opened the floodgates, and the result is that there is often a glut of workers workers who don't need benefits or a forty hour workweek, nor do they require a union. Guess who can't compete with that.

Americans will do most of the jobs, given decent wages and benefits, and humane working conditions.

Now look at those statistics in the OP ..... like so many similar stats, part of it deals with Hispanic immigrants, and part with illegal immigrants, in a disingenous argument meant to confuse the reader. As always, those who support illegals like to pretend that the other side is against all immigration, legal or not, and of course there is always the implication of "racism" ..... even though "Mexican" and "Hispanic" aren't races.

I could say it until I'm blue in the face: "No one is against legal immigration. Illegals are the problem!" and it wouldn't matter at all to those who enable illegals, they'll just continue to pretend that we are haters of all immigration.
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Old 10-25-2007, 05:44 AM
 
4,182 posts, read 5,659,447 times
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Quote:
But, at any rate, ndfmnlf, here's my challenge--YOU define the NON-American culture of your choice...pick any country you want...or MORE than one. You may be as brief, or as verbose as you choose. This will enlighten us, but more importantly, will let us know the standards to which you are holding US.
The burden of proof is on those who demand others to conform to a specific way of life. If you want people to conform to American culture, then it is only fair that YOU define American culture instead of the other way around.
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Old 10-25-2007, 05:49 AM
 
4,182 posts, read 5,659,447 times
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Quote:
I could say it until I'm blue in the face: "No one is against legal immigration. Illegals are the problem!" and it wouldn't matter at all to those who enable illegals, they'll just continue to pretend that we are haters of all immigration.
You might as well get blue in the face forever. According to this thread http://www.city-data.com/forum/immig...mographic.html the opposition to immigration is based on the fear that the white race will be displaced and disempowered by the arrival of non-white immigrants (legal or illegal).
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Old 10-25-2007, 06:32 AM
 
Location: North Texas
384 posts, read 850,456 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndfmnlf View Post
From what I see from direct experience (I'm a doc), the great majority of patients who come to our ER and don't pay their bills are poor whites (uninsured or on Medicaid). They come to the ER for things like colds and minor illnesses that are not real emergencies. Many are intoxicated or high on drugs. So from someone who actually works in the trenches, I would have to say that you are portraying a distorted picture of the situation.

That's exactly the point doc. We already have enough deadbeat, legal citizens, stealing from us, we don't need illegal ones as well. Are you a doc in Texas, New Mexico, Arizona or California? If not, you may not have the huge wave of illegals that we have experienced here. However, get ready, this distorted picture will soon become your reality.
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Old 10-25-2007, 06:37 AM
 
4,182 posts, read 5,659,447 times
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Quote:
And your experience in your ER probably doesn't accurately reflect the reality of the situation for ER's in areas with high numbers of illegal immigrants. At least you still have an ER.
Can you cite examples of hospitals that were shut down by illegal aliens? Show some examples please, then we can talk.
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