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Old 10-28-2007, 11:58 AM
 
140 posts, read 79,993 times
Reputation: 42

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndfmnlf View Post
Great post. I'm with you on this...I still don't understand why some Americans oppose the presence of immigrants who do the work that Americans won't do. You would think it's a win-win situation for the Mexicans and the Americans: the Mexicans earn a living which they could not find in Mexico, while the Americans get to perform other higher skilled jobs that pay more money and are less physically gruelling.

Thanks to immigration, Americans are able to specialize in technically esoteric jobs since they no longer have to pick strawberries themselves. We are a high tech country with a Silicon Valley and state-of the-art hospitals precisely because our young people have been freed from the need to clean latrines or collect garbage. They can now become software engineers, biotech researchers, rocket scientists, etc.... This results in economic progress. And because our society is progressive, the quality of life for everyone across the board is improved (including that of the Mexicans, which is why they come here in the first place).

This is comparative advantage in action. To those of you who are unfamiliar with it, comparative advantage is a concept enunciated by classical economist David Ricardo. It is the idea that both parties can benefit from trade even if one of them is better at producing everything than the other. The idea is to specialize in what you are good at and trade that for something which you can not do yourself. Let the Mexicans do what they do best, and let the rest of us do what we do best.....then, let's exchange the fruits of each of our labors to our mutual benefit. The Mexicans can buy our computers, while we get to eat their strawberries. This is capitalism at its best. This is the American way.
This is what's wrong with America. Tell you what, why not come live in my neighborhood for awhile, see how you feel then.

Last edited by NewToCA; 10-28-2007 at 03:17 PM.. Reason: More civil way to make your point...
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Old 10-28-2007, 01:58 PM
 
Location: where you sip the tea of the breasts of the spinsters of Utica
8,305 posts, read 11,840,778 times
Reputation: 8043
Quote:
Originally Posted by ndfmnlf View Post
Great post. I'm with you on this...I still don't understand why some Americans oppose the presence of immigrants who do the work that Americans won't do. ....Thanks to immigration, Americans are able to specialize in technically esoteric jobs since they no longer have to pick strawberries themselves. ....
You're still confusing illegal with legal immigration.
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Old 10-28-2007, 02:33 PM
 
17,286 posts, read 25,015,617 times
Reputation: 8527
Quote:
Originally Posted by ndfmnlf View Post

Thanks to immigration, Americans are able to specialize in technically esoteric jobs since they no longer have to pick strawberries themselves. We are a high tech country with a Silicon Valley and state-of the-art hospitals precisely because our young people have been freed from the need to clean latrines or collect garbage. They can now become software engineers, biotech researchers, rocket scientists, etc.... This results in economic progress. And because our society is progressive, the quality of life for everyone across the board is improved (including that of the Mexicans, which is why they come here in the first place).

HAHAHA, "technically esoteric jobs"? Newsflash: The majority of any people in society cannot be expected to do only "technically esoteric jobs" and have a shadow workforce doing the crap jobs.

There will always be a need for people to do garbage collection, manufacturing, etc. People who WOULD HAVE picked strawberries, or worked in food processing plants are NEVER EVER going to enter the workforce in a "technically esoteric job." There are plenty of low skilled laborers in America willing to do those jobs, and we shouldn't begrudge or look down upon them for doing so.

Besides, what happens to the children of the people who come in to pick strawberries? Are THEY allowed to pick strawberries? Or will they too find a technically esoteric job necessitating a never-ending flow of new people to pick strawberries?
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Old 10-28-2007, 02:46 PM
 
Location: CA Coast
1,900 posts, read 1,717,087 times
Reputation: 350
Quote:
You have a tough sell ahead of you to show that 1) despite its high-paying status, no Americans can be found to do the job, and 2) there's a reason why farmers don't want to go through the normal immigration procedures every other industry has to when no American laborers can be found.

Something tells me they choose #2 because they DON'T want to comply with labor laws, but I await your response.
Wrong, market forces dictate labor choices.
You think $20-$30 an hour is a high wage?
Right now, crops are rotting in the fields due to labor shortage, due to ICE enforcement, anyone walking in the door will get a job, workers are needed, the problem is, not enough people are walking in the door.

You want a job in the fields, there is one waiting for you.

I talked with Hector the irrigator the other day, he was out in his rubber boots in the dim light of dawn, at 7:00AM he had been at work for an hour. He had 300 sections of 20 foot 4 inch sprinkler pipe to relocate.
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Old 10-28-2007, 02:53 PM
 
17,286 posts, read 25,015,617 times
Reputation: 8527
Quote:
Originally Posted by greatbasinguide View Post
Wrong, market forces dictate labor choices.
You think $20-$30 an hour is a high wage?
$20-$30/hour is above the average median income in the United States.

Quote:
Originally Posted by greatbasinguide
Right now, crops are rotting in the fields due to labor shortage, due to ICE enforcement, anyone walking in the door will get a job, workers are needed, the problem is, not enough people are walking in the door.
Well, looks like it's time to start importing food from other countries. We subsidize agriculture too much in this country anyway. Half of Africa could probably be lifted out of poverty if their produce could compete with subsidized American food in the American market.

Quote:
Originally Posted by greatbasinguide
You want a job in the fields, there is one waiting for you.
Sorry, I'm gainfully employed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by greatbasinguide
I talked with Hector the irrigator the other day, he was out in his rubber boots in the dim light of dawn, at 7:00AM he had been at work for an hour. He had 300 sections of 20 foot 4 inch sprinkler pipe to relocate.
Hope Hector's legal.

Though I admit, in today's world where employers have to deal with inconvenient things like payroll taxes, wage laws, workday laws, overtime laws, OSHA standards, it's so much easier to drive to the Home Depot, pick up a truckload of illegals, work them to death, and rest easy knowing that they can't complain and won't complain.


After all, what's good for me is good for the country as a whole, right? Everyone acting self-interestedly will inevitably be good for society?
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Old 10-28-2007, 03:08 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,678,111 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by greatbasinguide View Post
Wrong, market forces dictate labor choices.
You think $20-$30 an hour is a high wage?
Right now, crops are rotting in the fields due to labor shortage, due to ICE enforcement, anyone walking in the door will get a job, workers are needed, the problem is, not enough people are walking in the door.

You want a job in the fields, there is one waiting for you.

I talked with Hector the irrigator the other day, he was out in his rubber boots in the dim light of dawn, at 7:00AM he had been at work for an hour. He had 300 sections of 20 foot 4 inch sprinkler pipe to relocate.
I still smell a rat...........as I have stated in the past: there are many, many people who would give their proverbial 'left nut' for a $20+ an hour job.

The unemployed auto workers in Michigan come to mind..........
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Old 10-28-2007, 03:16 PM
 
24 posts, read 38,450 times
Reputation: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by ndfmnlf View Post
Just a suggestion: go back to school or get more training to obtain more skills that will make you more competitive. That's all there is to it. Instead of whining that foreigners are taking away your job, you need too work on making yourself more marketable. That's what we all do. Why should you be any different?
Just a suggestion: Read the entrie post when I post them. I'm a diesel mechanic, I'm not in jeopardy of losing my job. My sympathies are for my friends and all Americans who are losing there jobs to illegals, most of which probably don't have the luxury of being able to afford to go back to school, or perhaps they liked what they did before their job was stolen.
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Old 10-28-2007, 03:26 PM
 
Location: CA Coast
1,900 posts, read 1,717,087 times
Reputation: 350
Quote:
Well, looks like it's time to start importing food from other countries. We subsidize agriculture too much in this country anyway. Half of Africa could probably be lifted out of poverty if their produce could compete with subsidized American food in the American market.
Where is this idea coming from? Somebody explain to me how fruits and vegetables are subsidized.

Quote:
Though I admit, in today's world where employers have to deal with inconvenient things like payroll taxes, wage laws, workday laws, overtime laws, OSHA standards, it's so much easier to drive to the Home Depot, pick up a truckload of illegals, work them to death, and rest easy knowing that they can't complain and won't complain.
This is amazing. Field workers are not day laborers standing on a street corner. They are unionized men and women with jobs that they return to each day, all taxes, all wage laws, all required deductions are made.

I think one of the biggest problems here is that ya'll have no idea how ag business actually works.
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Old 10-28-2007, 03:29 PM
 
Location: Land of 10000 Lakes + some
2,885 posts, read 1,429,108 times
Reputation: 346
Ok then, you say you respect the American culture but your posts seem to not believe in it.

Is any country perfect? Can you not respect your country but admit its flaws? Do we respect the lawlessness of politicians? If we don't does that make us anti-American? Why are we not showing our disappointment and anger at the fact that they take our money every which way but don't do much to help us? Don't we have the right to expect more from our supposedly educated elected leaders who do not do right by us? This is not off-thread. What I am trying to raise is how upset we become at some things and not others and that what should be the focus is often not. It's always easier to blame the little people by forming alliances against them.
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Old 10-28-2007, 03:37 PM
 
24 posts, read 38,450 times
Reputation: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by greatbasinguide View Post
This stuff is such baloney. The field workers are unionized, wages in the field run $20-30 an hour. Yes it is hard work long hours, but they are fairly well compensated.

Arrogant? Americans for the most part value education, those who are so marginalized that they have no skills and would be considered for field work have no work ethic, and lack the stamina to work long hours.
So you are making the prejudice that Americans are lazy and Mexicans are hard workers. Kinda reverse racism don't you think? Oh that's right, in this country racism towards white people isn't racism. ndfmnlf, you need to stop telling me I need to go get educated, I worked my way up from the bottom like many Americans do, paid my dues and I am extremely good at my job. Too bad you can't be educated to learn some common sense.
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