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Old 10-28-2007, 09:43 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,665,827 times
Reputation: 3785

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Quote:
Originally Posted by greatbasinguide View Post
Allow me a paraphrase;

There are those in Mexico who feel the loss much more than you feel the gain, a wronged people have a long memory.

"Poor Mexico, so far from God and so close to the United States"

Do you remember when the majority of the United States Army invaded Mexico and wandered at will through the country for an entire year? Of course you don't, but they do. Oh, not 1846, another of a series of attacks on Mexico by the US.
That line does not fly with me-----------Mexico broke the law be rebelling against Spain one generation earlier in 1821.

Had Mexico lost its war of independence; many of the 'New Spain' rebels would have been executed.

And too; the Spanish Hispanics 'stole' the land from the Aztecs with help from other American Indian 'nations' ca. 1500 AD.

Bottom line: I have no sympathy for Mexico's pain in getting defeated almost 150 years ago.

Many other societies suffered far worse in the 20th Century (Germany, Japan, Jewish people in Europe, Spain, etc) yet are powerhouse cultures today.
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Old 10-28-2007, 10:11 PM
 
Location: new mexico
447 posts, read 706,740 times
Reputation: 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by greatbasinguide View Post
Allow me a paraphrase;

There are those in Mexico who feel the loss much more than you feel the gain, a wronged people have a long memory.

"Poor Mexico, so far from God and so close to the United States"

Do you remember when the majority of the United States Army invaded Mexico and wandered at will through the country for an entire year? Of course you don't, but they do. Oh, not 1846, another of a series of attacks on Mexico by the US.

so what exactly are you saying? you obviously have resentments about america fighting mexico...sounds like a battlecry if you asked me...but of course, you didnt.
MOD CUT
i dont want a war...with anyone.
i live my life loving my family and friends and fellow man..
i dont judge them by their outward appearance, but am guilty of judging them by their character.
as i suspect they do to me.
i try to live by the golden rule...but how many times do you have to turn the other cheek?
i am no stranger to a past war....some of my anscetors were native american...i learned from my elders about the trail of tears walk, i was taught to be proud of every aspect of my heritage...the english that settled here in 1639, and the choctaw and cherokee ,the sharecropper okies... myself, i am a mutt yet more red white and blue than some.i love my fellow human and cry for their suffering.i donote when i can, and pray for world peace....
i do not hate anyone...i want all humans to prosper... but i also want my border secured. whats so wrong with that? every other nation expects the same right.
doesnt matter
i have been called ignorant or that my responses have been ignorant, yet still....i stand in my belief.


"our great resources ... are more especially to be found in the virtue,patriotism,and intelligence of our fellow citizens."
james monroe.

Last edited by NewToCA; 10-28-2007 at 11:19 PM.. Reason: language
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Old 10-28-2007, 10:14 PM
 
Location: CA Coast
1,900 posts, read 1,714,752 times
Reputation: 350
Doesn't make any difference what you or I feel, or think. The oppression of Mexico by Los Nortenos has affected the outlook of Mexico vis a vis the US. It is helpful to keep that in mind.

On another note, I do not think that many of you understand the numbers involved when you think about replacing illegal labor. One valley in California, the Santa Maria Valley has about 90,000 acres growing fruits and vegetables. The crops here require a labor force of about 23,000 of which just over half are undocumented workers. Now, extrapolate that out to California, and the Nation.

Dislocation of the current work force no matter how benign will have a serious negative effect on the National economy.
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Old 10-28-2007, 10:43 PM
 
Location: new mexico
447 posts, read 706,740 times
Reputation: 104
one more thing, i also have friends who are southwest native americans, the isleta, the jemez, the santa ana, and the sandia, they have told me stories of their anscetors being captured and enslaved by the spanish, some tribes committing mass suicide to avoid capture. the land belonged to them in the first place.....in their eyes.
does that mean that the native americans have a right to invade mexico?take their land back? lets go back a million years, and i'm sure the cavemen would be fighting over territory too...it's human nature...animal nature....and sometimes it is a vicious cycle.
you spit on me, and i'll kick you in the knee....
i'm american, but that doesnt mean i am not human, too, because i want my government to protect me?and want them to send back the ones who shouldnt be here, and are really doing harm by taking lives...forget about the jobs...
i am not saying people in need, who, their only crime is being here illegally should be automatically deported without a chance to prove their need... or desire to become american, but those who are committing violent crimes while here illegally...
i am not totally against some form of amnesty , if the only crime is being desperate.
but i am in favor of deproting violent illegals, who have hurt or killed someone...or committed any violent crime.
doesnt matter where they come from...doesnt matter the "race"
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Old 10-28-2007, 10:54 PM
 
Location: new mexico
447 posts, read 706,740 times
Reputation: 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by greatbasinguide View Post
Doesn't make any difference what you or I feel, or think. The oppression of Mexico by Los Nortenos has affected the outlook of Mexico vis a vis the US. It is helpful to keep that in mind.

On another note, I do not think that many of you understand the numbers involved when you think about replacing illegal labor. One valley in California, the Santa Maria Valley has about 90,000 acres growing fruits and vegetables. The crops here require a labor force of about 23,000 of which just over half are undocumented workers. Now, extrapolate that out to California, and the Nation.

Dislocation of the current work force no matter how benign will have a serious negative effect on the National economy.


hmmmmmmmmmmmm.....national economy over national security......seems like a no win.
how did america prosper before the illegal, anyway?
i'm done...out of breath...goodnight.xoxoxo
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Old 10-29-2007, 10:53 AM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,630,805 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by greatbasinguide View Post
Doesn't make any difference what you or I feel, or think. The oppression of Mexico by Los Nortenos has affected the outlook of Mexico vis a vis the US. It is helpful to keep that in mind.

On another note, I do not think that many of you understand the numbers involved when you think about replacing illegal labor. One valley in California, the Santa Maria Valley has about 90,000 acres growing fruits and vegetables. The crops here require a labor force of about 23,000 of which just over half are undocumented workers. Now, extrapolate that out to California, and the Nation.

Dislocation of the current work force no matter how benign will have a serious negative effect on the National economy.
As I've said endlessly and repeatedly, America has HUGE problems---MANY problems. And one of these--of about MEDIUM importance---is illegal immigration. I know something about the Santa Maria Valley, and the Guadalupe area, and I don't doubt your figures for a moment. Stopping illegals would devastate the entire valley--true.

Americans once DID pick crops. Americans also once lived in labor camps, had no TV's, and no VCR's, cell phones, Motor homes. or microwave ovens, etc. And American teenagers once worked, too, because there were no skateboards, and no malls to "hang out" at.

I won't belabor this any longer---the facts speak for themselves. But much as I HATE to agree with anything "The Decider" says (yuck)... folks, it's true...there ARE many illegals doing jobs "Americans won't do". Sorry to say it. And I'm not saying Americans CAN'T do these jobs....I'm saying that young Americans--including their teenagers---simply WON'T do these jobs. It's called "American Culture". In fact, I've known many hard-working illegals personally, and after they've been here even a few years, even THEIR kids won't do these jobs.....sad, perplexing, but absolutely true...

And, before you ask, NO, these kids don't want to move back to Mexico, either. Mexico isn't "cool", to use their words....
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Old 10-29-2007, 11:09 AM
 
Location: CA Coast
1,900 posts, read 1,714,752 times
Reputation: 350
Quote:
how did america prosper before the illegal, anyway?
Prior to 1964 there was the bracero program. It was the end of that seasonal guest worker program that initiated the heavier influx of illegals. I am not sure what the government was thinking, that white Americans would pick up the slack? Prior to WWII Filipino, Japanese and whites and Mexican labor worked the fields.

When my grandfather started his farming operations in 1909 he used Japanese labor, the Japanese culture is such that the workers began independent operations. Today you won't find Japanese or Filipino field workers, but you will find them owning farms employing Mexican labor.
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Old 10-29-2007, 01:34 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,630,805 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by greatbasinguide View Post
When my grandfather started his farming operations in 1909 he used Japanese labor, the Japanese culture is such that the workers began independent operations. Today you won't find Japanese or Filipino field workers, but you will find them owning farms employing Mexican labor.
This is an excellent point--wish I'd made it myself, and I know it to be true. The fact is that field labor, as it's been known here in California, has NEVER been anything but a "temporary" job----no field laborer, as far as I know, ever hopes his children and grandchildren take up his occupation. There's probably no such thing in ANY ethnic group, as a 3rd or 4th generation Field Laborer whose family has long roots in the US. A few, maybe, but it's a VERY few.
Thus the argument that "Americans can do this job" becomes even more unsustainable. Americans COULD----but they simply WON'T...for a large variety of reasons.
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Old 10-29-2007, 01:42 PM
 
17,286 posts, read 25,002,878 times
Reputation: 8527
Quote:
Originally Posted by greatbasinguide View Post
Allow me a paraphrase;

There are those in Mexico who feel the loss much more than you feel the gain, a wronged people have a long memory.

"Poor Mexico, so far from God and so close to the United States"

Do you remember when the majority of the United States Army invaded Mexico and wandered at will through the country for an entire year? Of course you don't, but they do. Oh, not 1846, another of a series of attacks on Mexico by the US.

Oh god, not the "stolen lands" argument AGAIN!

But whatever, I don't understand how the largely indigenous, largely Southern Mexican illegals that come to the United States have this deep sorrow for the loss of territories that REALLY belonged to American Indians, despite Mexico's ill-established claims to the Southwest, and its inability to sucessfully colonize the area.


Seems to me we did the entire region a favor.
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Old 10-29-2007, 01:48 PM
 
Location: CA Coast
1,900 posts, read 1,714,752 times
Reputation: 350
Actually in the legal American citizen hispanic population there are second and third and fourth generation field workers. The "get ahead" concept that is part of European and Asian culture is not really a part of the Campesino culture, infact getting ahead of your friends and family is frowned upon. Two quick stories.

When my brother left the ski bum lifestyle we were living at Tahoe to take over the family ag business upon the death of my father he had ideas about how to improve the lives of field workers, scholarships for the children of long term employees etc.

He found out that "all they want to do is make enough to have a barbecue on Friday night"

Another story, years ago at my first teaching job at a poor largely hispanic school I talked with the ESL teacher about my disappointment that they did not want to "get ahead". Her response was, "they have gotten ahead, they have hot water from the tap and indoor bathrooms, in their thinking they are doing really well."

These are sweeping generalizations, there are upwardly mobile hispanics, some doing very well, some owning ag business, not farms usually, the land tends to belong to the "old families" like ours, but ag supply business, trucking companies, labor contractors, repair shops etc.

I have an old VW thing, my son beat it up pretty good out in our hills. I plan to restore it and make it a snazzy dune buggy rig. I know a Mexican guy I can hand it over to for the body work, when I get it back it will be perfect.

In my experience there are true craftsmen among our hispanic neighbors, and there are those happy in the fields, make enough to have a party.

Quote:
But whatever, I don't understand how the largely indigenous, largely Southern Mexican illegals that come to the United States have this deep sorrow for the loss of territories that REALLY belonged to American Indians, despite Mexico's ill-established claims to the Southwest, and its inability to sucessfully colonize the area.
MOD CUT

The point is not a deep sorrow for the loss of territories, it is that coming to the Southwest is not seen as going to a foreign country, therefore not a crime to enter without the paperwork required by those who claim to own it. They see English speaking people living in states and towns with Spanish names, along rivers and mountains with Spanish names, it does not take much imagination to see that the land is not "foreign" to them.

Now, plenty of Mexican and Mexican American intellectuals consider it "occupied land' or Aztlan, but that does not filter down to the campesino in much depth.

Last edited by NewToCA; 10-29-2007 at 05:17 PM.. Reason: please don't comment on other poster comprehension
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