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Old 10-29-2007, 06:06 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,622,458 times
Reputation: 3785

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Quote:
Originally Posted by greatbasinguide View Post
And your point is?
Try this, I asked a question, why did the US invade and occupy Mexico. Can you tell me why this happened?
Probably because of Manifest Destiny------which was acceptable under US law at the time I suspect.

Again: the historical reasons are moot aside from hoping that other cultures do not do the same things. Hint; hint; Guatemala with your ongoing designs on Belize.
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Old 10-29-2007, 06:19 PM
 
Location: CA Coast
1,900 posts, read 1,707,816 times
Reputation: 350
Quote:
Probably because of Manifest Destiny------which was acceptable under US law at the time I suspect.
How easily that is said, a war of naked aggression against a country that had done us no harm. The deaths of thousands of its citizens, the occupation of its capitol and seaports for several years, the theft of half its land; "probably because of Manifest Destiny" , no big deal.

Known as Polk's war the purpose was to get more southern states, slave states to counterbalance the north, and to get the California seaports.

Some quotes for you;
Quote:
A joint session of Congress approved the declaration of war, with southern Democrats in strong support because they saw the annexation of Mexico as an opportunity to increase the number of slave states. Sixty-seven Whigs voted against the war on a key slavery amendment, but on the final passage only 14 Whigs voted no, including Reps. Abraham Lincoln and John Quincy Adams. .



In the United States, most Whigs in the North and South opposed the war; most Democrats supported it. Joshua Giddings led a group of dissenters in Washington D.C. He called the war with Mexico "an aggressive, unholy, and unjust war," and voted against supplying soldiers and weapons for the war. He said:

"In the murder of Mexicans upon their own soil, or in robbing them of their country, I can take no part either now or here-after. The guilt of these crimes must rest on others. I will not participate in them."

Fellow Whig, Congressman Abraham Lincoln, contested the causes for the war and demanded to know the exact spot on which Thornton had been attacked and U.S. blood shed. "Show me the spot," he demanded. Whig leader Robert Toombs of Georgia declared:

"This war is a nondescript.... We charge the President with usurping the war-making power... with seizing a country... which had been for centuries, and was then in the possession of the Mexicans.... Let us put a check upon this lust of dominion. We had territory enough, Heaven knew."[4]

Northern abolitionists attacked the war as an attempt by slave-owners -- frequently referred to as "the Slave Power" — to expand the grip of slavery and thus assure their continued influence in the federal government. Acting on his convictions, Henry David Thoreau was jailed for his refusal to pay taxes to support the war, and penned his famous essay, Civil Disobedience.

Former President John Quincy Adams also expressed his belief that the war was fundamentally an effort to expand slavery.
The US has invaded and occupied parts of Mexico at other times. In 1916 a great part of the US Army invaded Mexico and wandered around aimlessly for a year.

This stuff may not mean much to you, but then your nation was not the victim of the aggression

Last edited by greatbasinguide; 10-29-2007 at 06:32 PM..
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Old 10-29-2007, 06:26 PM
 
14,213 posts, read 7,406,947 times
Reputation: 8020
Quote:
Originally Posted by greatbasinguide View Post
How easily that is said, a war of naked aggression against a country that had done us no harm. The deaths of thousands of its citizens, the occupation of its capitol and seaports for several years, the theft of half its land; "probably because of Manifest Destiny" , no big deal.

Known as Polk's war the purpose was to get more southern states, slave states to counterbalance the north, and to get the California seaports
So you could exploit desperate illegal aliens to keep grandads farm running and make your fortune?
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Old 10-29-2007, 06:26 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,622,458 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by greatbasinguide View Post
How easily that is said, a war of naked aggression against a country that had done us no harm. The deaths of thousands of its citizens, the occupation of its capitol and seaports for several years, the theft of half its land; "probably because of Manifest Destiny" , no big deal.

Known as Polk's war the purpose was to get more southern states, slave states to counterbalance the north, and to get the California seaports
Final time here:

Why is it acceptable to slam the USA for subjugating Mexico yet you are silent on what Cortez did?

Lots of disgusting things happened throughout history. The past cannot be changed whether on an individual level or a societal one.
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Old 10-29-2007, 06:36 PM
 
Location: CA Coast
1,900 posts, read 1,707,816 times
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The problem I am attempting to educate ya'll upon is the rationale for Mexican resentment against the US, and the rationale for at least some of the immigration to the US, What Julius Caesar did to the Gauls is not important for the purposes of our discussion, nor what Cortez did.

If I wanted to slam the US I would draw out the parallels between Polk's invasion of Mexico and Bush's invasion of Iraq.
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Old 10-29-2007, 06:53 PM
 
3,712 posts, read 5,710,869 times
Reputation: 1285
Quote:
Originally Posted by greatbasinguide View Post
The problem I am attempting to educate ya'll upon is the rationale for Mexican resentment against the US, and the rationale for at least some of the immigration to the US, What Julius Caesar did to the Gauls is not important for the purposes of our discussion, nor what Cortez did.

If I wanted to slam the US I would draw out the parallels between Polk's invasion of Mexico and Bush's invasion of Iraq.
This is no rationale for the invasion of the US by Mexican illegal aliens. It is merely a convenient 'excuse'.
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Old 10-29-2007, 06:55 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,615,066 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greatbasinguide View Post
The problem I am attempting to educate ya'll upon is the rationale for Mexican resentment against the US, and the rationale for at least some of the immigration to the US, is not important for .
OK, I see this--Mexicans have a certain resentment of the US....no argument there. The argument is how much should the US (still a viable country at this point, though nothing is guaranteed) allow this resentment to figure in OUR poilcies? We understand what's motivating the Mexicans....but what, if anything, is motivating our reaction to it?

No doubt at some date in the near future, the Iraqis will resent us. That's pretty much a given. But how should we react to that, when it happens (as it most assuredly will)?

Should we simply give Mexico back the entire US southwest? If we do, are we allowed to "prorate" the investment we've made there? Can we remove any portable improvements we've made, or should we charge them...say, for example, the Golden Gate Bridge...should we get it appraised, demolish it and sell it for scrap, or just write it off?
Or should we simply come out and tell Mexico "tough luck---get over it". Should we have a special status for Mexicans who want to come here, just because they're Mexicans? What about the Russians who once claimed California-wouldn't special treatment for Mexico invite Russia to want THEIR cut? And what about Spain? After all, Mexico had only recently revolted from Spain when they lost the Southwest. Was it really theirs to lose, or will Spain want to file a claim? Who gets first dibs on "us", anyway?

At this point, we don't seem to be doing ANYTHING...and that's what many are frustrated about.

Your comments, please......
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Old 10-29-2007, 06:59 PM
 
Location: CA Coast
1,900 posts, read 1,707,816 times
Reputation: 350
Quote:
OK, I see this--Mexicans have a certain resentment of the US....no argument there. The argument is how much should the US (still a viable country at this point, though nothing is guaranteed) allow this resentment to figure in OUR poilcies?
The US should not give any weight to this resentment regarding our immigration policies. But the US needs to act in a polite and moral manner regarding Mexico, and in many ways does.
A good way for a politician to commit political suicide in Mexico is to be seen as overly favorable to the US.

I hope primarily to give understanding MOD CUT here, I know that is spitting into the wind, but perhaps someone will slow down, take a deep breath and understand the all too human motivations of our neighbors to the south

Last edited by NewToCA; 10-29-2007 at 09:25 PM.. Reason: need a different way of describing those disagreeing with you
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Old 10-29-2007, 07:18 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,615,066 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by greatbasinguide View Post
I hope primarily to give understanding MOD CUT here, I know that is spitting into the wind, but perhaps someone will slow down, take a deep breath and understand the all too human motivations of our neighbors to the south
Not quite sure what, if anything, can be done about this. This situation is tailor-made for them. Lots of material, and they've got a good "cover"....they're just part of the landscape, I guess....

Last edited by NewToCA; 10-29-2007 at 09:26 PM..
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Old 10-29-2007, 08:49 PM
 
17,279 posts, read 24,965,630 times
Reputation: 8519
Quote:
Originally Posted by greatbasinguide View Post
And your point is?
Try this, I asked a question, why did the US invade and occupy Mexico. Can you tell me why this happened?
Because that's the way things worked up on planet earth until about 1960.

Don't like that rationale? Good luck fighting the history of mankind.

I, for one, don't buy your "car" analogy, either. It MORE like Canada claiming the moon, with no space program or means to defend their claim, and then whining when the US visits and plants a flag and builds a lunar base.

You have no business claiming that which you cannot protect. In this country today you can lose land you "own" through the concept of "adverse possession." Look it up sometime, and be sure to visit any land you may have inherited 10 years ago on the other side of the country but never got around to visiting.

It's actually a tenant of sovereignty that you can protect what you claim. ESPECIALLY if what you're trying to claim ownership over is stolen property twice removed from the original owners.
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