illegal immigration; facts not emotion (quotes, soldiers, weapon, Democrats)

[macmeal]

Originally Posted by TriMT7

Oh god, not the "stolen lands" argument AGAIN!

But whatever, I don't understand how the largely indigenous, largely Southern Mexican illegals that come to the United States have this deep sorrow for the loss of territories that REALLY belonged to American Indians, despite Mexico's ill-established claims to the Southwest, and its inability to sucessfully colonize the area.


Seems to me we did the entire region a favor.

Now you're getting into the area of "revisionist history"--huge subject there. Much history probably SHOULD be revised, it's true. But in the short run, lets just say that playing the "revisionist card" isn't a lot different from the "race card". It instantly removes all accountability from the argument.

A few Hispanics and Indians did, of course, live here in the SW when "the border moved". Their descendants, for the most part, are now long-time American citizens, and have been, for generations.
The ethnic or "moral" claims of the illegal immigrant population as a whole rest on VERY questionable grounds---(if they "rest" at all). "This land is really OURS, and you stole it" just isn't a valid argument. It might be more accurate to say "This land once belonged to some Hispanics, but not my ancestors. Some gringos paid some Hispanics for it, or swindled them out of it...and some people got pushed aside...but not MY ancestors--they were down in Chiapas"..but of course, NO ONE is going to say that..it sounds too complicated.

Most of the world's population could come up with many "what if's" to explain its present circumstances...The present-day US illegals just happen to have a good "audience", in the fact that we Americans have a lot of "guilt" in our culture. Ever hear of the Tibetans griping at the Chinese for "taking their land"?---I didn't think so...

All this revisionism, of course, adds imeasurably to the very practical matter of the illegal-immigration situation. Revisionism goes a long way in deflecting the "blame" and culpability into whole new areas, and helps to dilute the whole argument.

[greatbasinguide]

Some gringos paid some Hispanics for it, or swindled them out of it..

Actually stole it at gun point then paid for it, like someone stealing your car and leaving you $100 in order to say he bought it.

Ever hear of the Tibetans griping at the Chinese for "taking their land"?---I didn't think so...

Yes, that is the whole point of the Free Tibet movement, the Chinese did to the Tibetans exactly what the Americans did to the Mexicans, except the Chinese stole the whole country.

[macmeal]

Originally Posted by greatbasinguide

Actually in the legal American citizen hispanic population there are second and third and fourth generation field workers. The "get ahead" concept that is part of European and Asian culture is not really a part of the Campesino culture, infact getting ahead of your friends and family is frowned upon. Two quick stories.

When my brother left the ski bum lifestyle we were living at Tahoe to take over the family ag business upon the death of my father he had ideas about how to improve the lives of field workers, scholarships for the children of long term employees etc.

He found out that "all they want to do is make enough to have a barbecue on Friday night"

Another story, years ago at my first teaching job at a poor largely hispanic school I talked with the ESL teacher about my disappointment that they did not want to "get ahead". Her response was, "they have gotten ahead, they have hot water from the tap and indoor bathrooms, in their thinking they are doing really well."

These are sweeping generalizations, there are upwardly mobile hispanics, some doing very well, some owning ag business, not farms usually, the land tends to belong to the "old families" like ours, but ag supply business, trucking companies, labor contractors, repair shops etc.

I have an old VW thing, my son beat it up pretty good out in our hills. I plan to restore it and make it a snazzy dune buggy rig. I know a Mexican guy I can hand it over to for the body work, when I get it back it will be perfect.

In my experience there are true craftsmen among our hispanic neighbors, and there are those happy in the fields, make enough to have a party.

You seem to have an affinity for missing the point.

The point is not a deep sorrow for the loss of territories, it is that coming to the Southwest is not seen as going to a foreign country, therefore not a crime to enter without the paperwork required by those who claim to own it. They see English speaking people living in states and towns with Spanish names, along rivers and mountains with Spanish names, it does not take much imagination to see that the land is not "foreign" to them.

Now, plenty of Mexican and Mexican American intellectuals consider it "occupied land' or Aztlan, but that does not filter down to the campesino in much depth.

You are apparently closer to the Ag Business than I---good post. I hadn't realized there were many muti-generational legal farm workers, but will take your word.
Yes, I'm very familiar with the "easy come, easy go" attitude you speak of. I've known much of this...spend 6 months income on a quinceanera, or a wedding. Not exactly the New England "puritan" ideal, to say the least. I've seen guys with more money invested in their pickup trucks than I have in my house.
But I have also known many illegals who bemoan the fact that their kids DON'T want to work hard, and are losing their "traditions".
Thanks for your post...

[macmeal]

Originally Posted by greatbasinguide

Actually stole it at gun point then paid for it, like someone stealing your car and leaving you $100 in order to say he bought it.

Yes, that is the whole point of the Free Tibet movement, the Chinese did to the Tibetans exactly what the Americans did to the Mexicans, except the Chinese stole the whole country.

My point was that the Tibetans aren't really free to "vent" in the streets of China. The Mexicans can, and do, vent regularly in the streets of LA. The US will "listen".....China won't..

Your "car theif" point was good, too. Most car thieves wouldn't have offered you the $100. Most would ignore you, and a few would kill you, just "because". Good analogy with our troubled US history--not "good" but certainly better than some...

[nvxplorer]

Uh...unless we define the Mexican-American War and the Treaty of Hidalgo as "stealing," we'd have difficulty showing how these events amount to theft.

[Woof]

I think I may have found out another reason why non-hispanic US citizens don't often work in the fields .... the jobs don't seem to be advertised, at least not in the newspapers I looked at. I got the impression from one site that the farmers don't directly hire individual workers, they subcontract the work to professional groups of harvesters ..... which may themselves only hire Mexicans by word of mouth.

[greatbasinguide]

Uh...unless we define the Mexican-American War and the Treaty of Hidalgo as "stealing," we'd have difficulty showing how these events amount to theft.

It most surely was stealing. Consider this, two small armed American groups entered the Southwest, Colonel Kearny took Santa Fe and marched through AZ to CA, while Fremont came down from Oregon, Why?

At the same time the US Navy took the west coast ports of Mexico.
One US army took El Paso and all the land through to and including Chihuhua (sp?)
Another crossed the Rio Grande and took (barely) Monterrey.
Another entered at Vera Cruz and took Mexico City.
The Americans occupied Mexico City and the west coast ports for two years.

Can you tell me why?

The treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo ended the war, a condition of the treaty was the "purchase" of half Mexico.

Like someone puts a gun to your head to steal your car, and tosses you a C note, he did not steal it, he bought it!

[ProLogic]

Originally Posted by greatbasinguide

It most surely was stealing. Consider this, two small armed American groups entered the Southwest, Colonel Kearny took Santa Fe and marched through AZ to CA, while Fremont came down from Oregon, Why?

At the same time the US Navy took the west coast ports of Mexico.
One US army took El Paso and all the land through to and including Chihuhua (sp?)
Another crossed the Rio Grande and took (barely) Monterrey.
Another entered at Vera Cruz and took Mexico City.
The Americans occupied Mexico City and the west coast ports for two years.

Can you tell me why?

The treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo ended the war, a condition of the treaty was the "purchase" of half Mexico.

Like someone puts a gun to your head to steal your car, and tosses you a C note, he did not steal it, he bought it!

Can anyone t

Agreed, word for word.

[ArizonaBear]

Originally Posted by greatbasinguide

It most surely was stealing. Consider this, two small armed American groups entered the Southwest, Colonel Kearny took Santa Fe and marched through AZ to CA, while Fremont came down from Oregon, Why?

At the same time the US Navy took the west coast ports of Mexico.
One US army took El Paso and all the land through to and including Chihuhua (sp?)
Another crossed the Rio Grande and took (barely) Monterrey.
Another entered at Vera Cruz and took Mexico City.
The Americans occupied Mexico City and the west coast ports for two years.

Can you tell me why?

The treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo ended the war, a condition of the treaty was the "purchase" of half Mexico.

Like someone puts a gun to your head to steal your car, and tosses you a C note, he did not steal it, he bought it!

Quite frankly: history cannot be rewritten.......it is too late to 'undo' what happened-------as it is too late to undo what Cortez and his people did to the Aztec's, etc.

Mexico can either 'suck it up' and build herself into a powerhouse: precedent has already be set by Italy, Ireland, Spain, etc------or, the country may fly apart with at least the northern tier of states being annexed by the USA.

It is Mexico's choice------we own them nothing.

[greatbasinguide]

And your point is?
Try this, I asked a question, why did the US invade and occupy Mexico. Can you tell me why this happened?