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Old 10-27-2007, 04:46 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greatbasinguide View Post
Two points;

Not true, the English landed in 1608. The Eastern Woodland tribes were not subdued for another 200 years. Interesting to consider the Iroquois Confederacy was 300 years old at the time of the entry of the English to the New world, and it still exists today. The American Senate representing states and the House of Representatives representing the people was copied from the Iroquois, as was the sedate manner of discussion, so unlike the British Parliament.
).
True, of course, on a relative scale....but I still stand by what I said. The last estimate I heard was that pre-Columbian "Anglo America" (Canada and the US) had roughly 1 million inhabitants---and pre-Columbian Mexico plus Central America had about 7 million. Don't know where they got these numbers, but if they're anywhere near the reality, you had 7 times the population down "south", in about a quarter the area of up "north" ( a 28-fold increase in density)...PLUS much of those down "south" had a settled, stable, complex society. There's simply no way to compare the densely populated Yucatan, Valle de Mexico, or Guatemala, with the empty plains of Montana, Wyoming, or the Dakotas....these areas may as well have been uninhabited, as far as their tiny, nomadic populations affected European settement.
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Old 10-27-2007, 07:11 PM
 
Location: CA Coast
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Pre contact North America was about 4 million indians. The east was fairly densely settled with agrarian tribes. They certainly fit the description of settled, stable, and complex. The two hundred years to subdue the Eastern woodland tribes, did not address any tribe west of the Appalachian Range, The Ohio and East side of the Mississipi drainages took another 50 years or so. Actually more when you look at the Minnisota troubles, during the Civil War.

But to suppress the Iroquois confederacey was a long term several hundred year project.
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Old 10-27-2007, 07:44 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greatbasinguide View Post
Pre contact North America was about 4 million indians. The east was fairly densely settled with agrarian tribes. They certainly fit the description of settled, stable, and complex. The two hundred years to subdue the Eastern woodland tribes, did not address any tribe west of the Appalachian Range, The Ohio and East side of the Mississipi drainages took another 50 years or so. Actually more when you look at the Minnisota troubles, during the Civil War.

But to suppress the Iroquois confederacey was a long term several hundred year project.
It has happened all through history: the stronger (whether through military, economics, education, sobriety, etc) societies have always subjugated the weaker cultures.

Bottom line: it is called Darwinism------the strong survive and prosper whereas the weaker ones get left behind.

In other words: what happened to the American Indians; wrong as it was, was no worse than the WW II Holocaust, Stalin's Gulags, Rwanda, etc.
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Old 10-27-2007, 07:50 PM
 
Location: CA Coast
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And now the strong are defeating the week, so why the complaining about the forces of destiny? I am sure that there were Romans who complained of the illegal immigrants, Visigoths (grandparents of our current hispanics) Vandals, Franks, etc,, for all the good it did them
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Old 10-27-2007, 07:58 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greatbasinguide View Post
And now the strong are defeating the week, so why the complaining about the forces of destiny? I am sure that there were Romans who complained of the illegal immigrants, Visigoths (grandparents of our current hispanics) Vandals, Franks, etc,, for all the good it did them
You are correct: the biggest problem group of immigrants were the 'yellow haired' ancestors of today's Nordic peoples-------they were essentially uncouth savages compared to cosmopolitan Rome.

Where Rome blew it was allowing those kind in to do menial work and serve in the legions............much like the illegal immigrants from SOB.

If us as a people are so weak that we need illegals to wipe our collective butts; we deserve to be subjugated.

Re: destiny; we will continue fighting till that day comes------laying down is not the American way of doing things.
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Old 10-27-2007, 08:03 PM
 
Location: CA Coast
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And precisely how are you fighting? How are you doing your part to save America from the Barbarian onslaught?
The same onslaught that was once feared from the
Irish
Italians
Jews,
Japanese
Chinese
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Old 10-27-2007, 08:08 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,611,035 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greatbasinguide View Post
And precisely how are you fighting? How are you doing your part to save America from the Barbarian onslaught?
The same onslaught that was once feared from the
Irish
Italians
Jews,
Japanese
Chinese
One paragraph answer:

All of the above groups came here legally, for the most part------and; all of the above put up with abuse yet made damn sure to assimilate by learning English, etc. The Irish already had the advantage of knowing our language.
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Old 10-27-2007, 08:19 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,610,630 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greatbasinguide View Post
And precisely how are you fighting? How are you doing your part to save America from the Barbarian onslaught?
The same onslaught that was once feared from the
Irish
Italians
Jews,
Japanese
Chinese
This is an often-cited fact---obviously, you're right---these groups did indeed arrive--along with the early-day Hispanics who already LIVED here in the SW. All true.... but you're conveniently omitting the most important part of today's situation....
These earlier groups arrived in a rough, tough, very dog-eat-dog unforgiving culture. It was "sink or swim" all the way. The locals teased and harrassed the new arrivals, almost as a sort of "hazing", and they were pushed into becoming Americans and dropping their "foreign ways"---and even some of their foreign names (!)...as quickly as possible. Even their own Americanized kids pushed them to "fit in".
AS A RESULT---much as we hate to admit it now, Americanization and assimilation took on the qualities of something greatly valued. It was a precious prize, and not one to be taken lightly. There was no "P.C.", and no one had any illusions of trying to become "multicultural". Many of these immigrants actually became more proudly patriotic than the locals.

Big difference, greatbasin, I'm afraid, with today's illegals.....and that's putting it mildly.
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Old 10-27-2007, 08:26 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,611,035 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
This is an often-cited fact---obviously, you're right---these groups did indeed arrive--along with the early-day Hispanics who already LIVED here in the SW. All true.... but you're conveniently omitting the most important part of today's situation....
These earlier groups arrived in a rough, tough, very dog-eat-dog unforgiving culture. It was "sink or swim" all the way. The locals teased and harrassed the new arrivals, almost as a sort of "hazing", and they were pushed into becoming Americans and dropping their "foreign ways"---and even some of their foreign names (!)...as quickly as possible. Even their own Americanized kids pushed them to "fit in".
AS A RESULT---much as we hate to admit it now, Americanization and assimilation took on the qualities of something greatly valued. It was a precious prize, and not one to be taken lightly. There was no "P.C.", and no one had any illusions of trying to become "multicultural". Many of these immigrants actually became more proudly patriotic than the locals.

Big difference, greatbasin, I'm afraid, with today's illegals.....and that's putting it mildly.
NO JOKE THERE:

One reason that I had my name legally changed to a stereotypical 'Anglo-Saxon' one was to 'fit in'-------my original name is Hungarian and does not exactly describe someone who looks like Thor vs. Igor.

Rightly or wrongly; such is life------deal with it or leave! That is directed to the 'multi-cultural' types.
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Old 10-27-2007, 08:41 PM
 
Location: CA Coast
1,900 posts, read 1,706,273 times
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So, your objective should be to fix that. I do, I am a missionary for America and the American way, and,, I reach a lot of illegals.

Again, what do you do to fix the problem?
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