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Old 10-27-2007, 11:31 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greatbasinguide View Post
So, your objective should be to fix that. I do, I am a missionary for America and the American way, and,, I reach a lot of illegals.

Again, what do you do to fix the problem?
I'm not getting this--we've both mentioned that American citizenship and assimilation were valued and prized largely because they came at a steep price.....so how should we "fix the problem"--what problem? Cheapen the concept? That's what we're doing now, and it's not working. Nothing that comes cheap is meaningful..."Why buy a cow when the milk is free?"...(OK, that isn't about citizenship---but it COULD be)...
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Old 10-28-2007, 01:30 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greatbasinguide View Post
Two points;

Not true, the English landed in 1608. The Eastern Woodland tribes were not subdued for another 200 years. Interesting to consider the Iroquois Confederacy was 300 years old at the time of the entry of the English to the New world, and it still exists today. The American Senate representing states and the House of Representatives representing the people was copied from the Iroquois, as was the sedate manner of discussion, so unlike the British Parliament.

originating in the geography for the reasons I outlined.. As the Arabs who fought the Europeans in the Crusade said about the Europeans, that they were uneducated uncultured barbarians who could fight very well (they still say that).
Much more than geography! We really don't care what Arabs say, Saudi Arabia among other middle east nations are cutting off people's heads on Friday after noon prayers at mosques, barbaric. Americans are the more educated and cultured now.
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Old 10-28-2007, 07:03 AM
 
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These earlier groups arrived in a rough, tough, very dog-eat-dog unforgiving culture. It was "sink or swim" all the way. The locals teased and harrassed the new arrivals, almost as a sort of "hazing", and they were pushed into becoming Americans and dropping their "foreign ways"---and even some of their foreign names (!)...as quickly as possible. Even their own Americanized kids pushed them to "fit in".
AS A RESULT---much as we hate to admit it now, Americanization and assimilation took on the qualities of something greatly valued. It was a precious prize, and not one to be taken lightly. There was no "P.C.", and no one had any illusions of trying to become "multicultural". Many of these immigrants actually became more proudly patriotic than the locals.
Hmmmm......interesting theory.....so you're saying that in order to make the new immigrants assimilate and prize their new-found US citizenship that we should first harrass them....subjecting them to a "hazing" ritual....that way, they'll realize how special they are for surviving it and how desirable the United States is for being an exclusive club. MOD CUT. Your method of assimilation is only appropriate for membership in a college fraternity. Or a gang.

Last edited by NewToCA; 10-28-2007 at 02:19 PM.. Reason: uncalled for
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Old 10-28-2007, 08:59 AM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,654,941 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndfmnlf View Post
Hmmmm......interesting theory.....so you're saying that in order to make the new immigrants assimilate and prize their new-found US citizenship that we should first harrass them....subjecting them to a "hazing" ritual....that way, they'll realize how special they are for surviving it and how desirable the United States is for being an exclusive club. MOD CUT. Your method of assimilation is only appropriate for membership in a college fraternity. Or a gang.
No: you have it backwards; it is a mark of insolent children AKA juveniles to attempt to cut into the front of the line-----in this case; waiting to immigrate to the USA, Spain, and other affluent countries.

Mexicans as a group are not starving.

Last edited by NewToCA; 10-28-2007 at 02:20 PM..
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Old 10-28-2007, 09:26 AM
 
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Very true ArizonaBear. Mexicans are not starving, for the most part, and of course have social things for their people also.
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Old 10-28-2007, 09:47 AM
 
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No: you have it backwards; it is a mark of insolent children AKA juveniles to attempt to cut into the front of the line-----in this case; waiting to immigrate to the USA, Spain, and other affluent countries.
It is not unusual for new immigrant-wannabes to overtake those that have been waiting in line ahead of them. Even our immigration laws provide leeway for this to happen. If there's a need for certain skills or a shortage of applicants for certain jobs, many immigrants who possess these characteristics can skip over the pack and move to the top of the line. An example would be the foreign nurses who have little trouble immigrating to the US. So, no, it is not juvenile for immigrants to do this. What is juvenile is the idea of harrassing them, subjecting them to a "hazing ritual", or locking them up in relocation camps in the hope that they will "assimilate" into the dominant culture - a culture that is itself in a constant state of flux.
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Old 10-28-2007, 09:56 AM
 
Location: CA Coast
1,900 posts, read 1,712,695 times
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I'm not getting this--we've both mentioned that American citizenship and assimilation were valued and prized largely because they came at a steep price.....so how should we "fix the problem"--what problem? Cheapen the concept? That's what we're doing now, and it's not working. Nothing that comes cheap is meaningful..."Why buy a cow when the milk is free?"...(OK, that isn't about citizenship---but it COULD be)...
First sentence, I have never stated anything of the sort, for the rest of it, Education me lad, Education.
Quote:
Very true ArizonaBear. Mexicans are not starving, for the most part, and of course have social things for their people also.
You have stated this several times. I don't think you know anything about Mexican Social Services.
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Old 10-28-2007, 09:58 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndfmnlf View Post
It is not unusual for new immigrant-wannabes to overtake those that have been waiting in line ahead of them. Even our immigration laws provide leeway for this to happen. If there's a need for certain skills or a shortage of applicants for certain jobs, many immigrants who possess these characteristics can skip over the pack and move to the top of the line. An example would be the foreign nurses who have little trouble immigrating to the US. So, no, it is not juvenile for immigrants to do this. What is juvenile is the idea of harrassing them, subjecting them to a "hazing ritual", or locking them up in relocation camps in the hope that they will "assimilate" into the dominant culture - a culture that is itself in a constant state of flux.
From what I hear, prospective young doctors are "hazed" about as bad as anyone in our modern culture---subjected to degrading 24-hour shifts at hospitals, sleeping on site, unable to have any sort of private life for months, and saddled by crushing financial debt. I'd think this was, if not "hazing", at least a sort of "winnowing out" of the lesser members, "toughening them up" for the career ahead....and I am SURE that, having survived their ordeal, the new doctors feel a sense of accomplishment they would not feel if they'd simply gotten their diplomas from a "correspondence medical school's" 2-week course.

How come the medical profession gets to "haze" and nearly abuse its "neophytes", but the United States doesn't have any say in who gets in or who doesn't. Do I detect a little "class hypocrisy" anywhere here? I know what you're thinking,--- doctors aren't REAL people---because Bricklayers don't get their own parking space, and construction sites don't have the "carpenter's lounge". But it still sounds a little hypocritical to me, Doc.
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Old 10-28-2007, 10:09 AM
 
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Originally Posted by greatbasinguide View Post
You have stated this several times. I don't think you know anything about Mexican Social Services.
Years ago, I had a houseguest, an in-law of an in-law, for a few days, who actually was a mid-level bureaucrat in the Mexican equivalent of the Social Security Administration in Mexico City..(don't recall its exact name). He showed me his card-as did his wife--and it all seemed very similar to the US system.
The big difference is that there was no concept of any "old age" pension like we have here. The only pay-out, as I understod it, were lump-sum stuff for certain disabled folks, etc. He was quite up-front about the fact that it was looked at as a sort of "catastrophic" system (and not too efficient at that), but their system had no mandate to "take care" of the otherwise healthy elderly.
BTW it's interesting to note that of the "three countries", (Canada, Mexico, USA), they get progressively more "federalized" as we go south. The Canadian provinces are much more autonomous than the US states. But down in Mexico, the actual states have little relevance and the bulk of government power is in the hands of the Federal Government.
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Old 10-28-2007, 10:20 AM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,627,052 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndfmnlf View Post
Hmmmm......interesting theory.....so you're saying that in order to make the new immigrants assimilate and prize their new-found US citizenship that we should first harrass them....subjecting them to a "hazing" ritual....that way, they'll realize how special they are for surviving it and how desirable the United States is for being an exclusive club. MOD CUT. Your method of assimilation is only appropriate for membership in a college fraternity. Or a gang.
Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying, and you're right, it is juvenile. So are virtually all clubs and organizations---so are armies and navies----and so is your own profession, medicine, which is no stranger to "professional privilege" ("Doctor's Lounge...No Nurses or Janitors allowed")---that's pretty juvenile too.
We're all juvenile. Politics is EXTREMELY juvenile. Patriotism is juvenile (MY flag is COOL---yours looks SILLY). The law is juvenile (better obey me, or I'll put you in jail)...But when you're dealing with fallible human beings, that's what works. That's why we have locks on our doors, and big cushy "corner offices" and a "key to the executive washroom"--all in recognition of the "juvenile" nature of every member of our society.

And in closing, I repeat---that which is given away freely means nothing, and is not appreciated or valued. That which is earned is prized, and it makes no difference whether it's diamonds, sex, or citizenship; that's how human nature works.....and immigrants are human.

Last edited by NewToCA; 10-28-2007 at 02:28 PM..
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