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Old 10-26-2007, 04:45 PM
 
Location: CA Coast
1,900 posts, read 1,708,575 times
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I found this quote elsewhere on this forum;
Quote:
And there are those who believe that political, legal and economic systems coupled with culture and religion played important roles in the success of European/Western civilization.
Geography is what insured the success of European/Western Civilization. The Geography of Western Europe, mountainous, cut by river valleys, very difficult to create the large land empires of Asia for instance, but conducive to numerous antagonistic small states.

Because of the numerous principalities, some consisting of not much more than a particular river valley fighting each other constantly over centuries, European military tactics and weapons became vastly superior to those of other nations. There are sound reasons for the vast number of castles in Europe.

When the Euros became tired of fighting each other they set out to fight the rest of the world. They did a pretty good Job, by the beginning of the Twentieth Century only Ethiopia and Siam were not under the thumb of the Euros. It wasn't any particular genius of the Euros that allowed this, it was superior military ability.

One of the clear examples was the ability of the very small armed force under Cortez to defeat a very large Aztec army, tactics will beat mass.

Incidentally, that ability to organize successful armies, based on centuries of internecine warfare was extrapolated out to government, hence the successful political systems, based on the military systems.

You will notice however, that the areas once governed by Spain are commonly incapable of governing themselves. That will be lesson two, if anyone cares.
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Old 10-26-2007, 06:35 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,628,664 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greatbasinguide View Post
You will notice however, that the areas once governed by Spain are commonly incapable of governing themselves. That will be lesson two, if anyone cares.
Yet all of the countries founded by Great Britain with majority Euro sourced populations do tend to be successful-------Australia, Canada, Ireland, New Zealand as well as the USA come to mind.

Now: before anybody tried the 'race card'; please remember that Argentina is 'whiter' racially (97% White) than either the USA or Great Britain yet they barely ranks above 'brown' Mexico in per capita income.
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Old 10-26-2007, 07:05 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,617,384 times
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It has much to do with culture. Spain settled its "new world" colonies roughly a century before England settled hers.....yet at the same time, England led the world in the advent of the "modern" world we now know, and the modern ideas of human rights. Therefore, in that century of difference between the two countries' arrival in America, there was the equivalent of two or more centuries of "modernization" in their two societies. Spain came here so early (over 500 years ago) that it was literally in the "Dark Ages". By the time England even arrived here, they were on the way to modern democracy.

Combine this with many other factors---The English basically came as "families", to settle what was, for all practical purposes, an empty land. The local Indians were simply too few in number, and not sufficiently advanced, to really be a serious obstacle to the English.
Spain's situation was quite different. Its "settlers" basically came as single males, looking not for farmland, but for riches. They entered many lands, like Mexico and Peru, which already had highly advanced societies and large populations. These were actually "countries", prior to European arrival. These unattached males soon "took wives" (at least that's how they described it)....and actually "merged" with the native population.
There are huge differences between the settlement of Anglo-America and Latin America. The English had a much "cleaner slate" to work with in starting a whole new society. The Spanish had to deal with a complicated, densely-populated pre-existing society.

It also has to do with religion. England was a Protestant society, somewhat "secular" in its open-minded approach to scientific thought and innovation. Spain was bound up in centuries of dogmatic Catholicism, and it simply didn't condone the "free-thinking" that the English were so fond of. As a Catholic, I'm forced to admit that The Church hasn't always been a bastion of scientific innovation. Catholicism later went on to do quite well in the US, but its principles didn't always translate well as the actual foundation of a nation.
It's safe to say that the USA has been good for Catholicism, but Catholicism may not have been very "good" for the USA, until after the nation had a chance to get "established". And in Latin America, The Church was right there from the beginning...

Last edited by macmeal; 10-26-2007 at 07:15 PM..
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Old 10-26-2007, 07:09 PM
 
Location: The world, where will fate take me this time?
3,162 posts, read 10,298,722 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
There are huge differences between the settlement of Anglo-America and Latin America. The English had a much "cleaner slate" to work with in starting a whole new society. The Spanish had to deal with a complicated, densely-populated pre-existing society.
Combined with the fact that Spain sent is worst criminals and the rest of spain's "scum" to colonize these land, and after they won they killed most males and raped most women, that's why in Mexico the worst insult you can tell someone is MOD CUT

sorry I don't mean to offend anyone here, just to express something that happened in history and that is part of our culture.

Regarding Hernan Corte's Victory, these were the reasons he was able to win.

Hernan Cortes won by a combination of many factors, actually the first time he tried he took quite a beating!! it was so bad that he lost many men, he had to retire and then wept all night in a tree that is known as El Arbol de la noche triste (The sad's night tree) but he was smart and resolved, he discovered that Aztecs ruled most of Mexico's tribes with an iron fist and they resented them, so with the help of Malitzin or la Malinche La Malinche - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia a Nahual women that became Hernan Cortes's wife and spoke Nahuatl, Spanish and many other tribe's languages, Hernan Cortes was able to gather all the enemies of the Aztecs together, he was able to win also because native Americans didn't have defenses against small pox and other diseases that came from Europe so he made his sick man to swim on their water reserves thus decimating the population and starting the world's first biological warfare.
He also brought with him technology and animals that weren't known in the American continent like Horses or armor and steel weapons and finally with the combination of all those things he was able to defeat the aztecs, but after that it took centuries for the spaniards to conquer all the territory that became La nueva España (the new spain).

Last edited by NewToCA; 10-26-2007 at 08:44 PM..
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Old 10-26-2007, 07:19 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,617,384 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Travelling fella View Post
Combined with the fact that Spain sent is worst criminals and the rest of spain's "scum" to colonize these land, and after they won they killed most males and raped most women, that's why in Mexico the worst insult you can tell someone is MOD CUT

sorry I don't mean to offend anyone here, just to express something that happened in history and that is part of our culture.

Regarding Hernan Corte's Victory, these were the reasons he was able to win.

Hernan Cortes won by a combination of many factors, actually the first time he tried he took quite a beating!! it was so bad that he lost many men, he had to retire and then wept all night in a tree that is known as El Arbol de la noche triste (The sad's night tree) but he was smart and resolved, he discovered that Aztecs ruled most of Mexico's tribes with an iron fist and they resented them, so with the help of Malitzin or la Malinche La Malinche - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia a Nahual women that became Hernan Cortes's wife and spoke Nahuatl, Spanish and many other tribe's languages, Hernan Cortes was able to gather all the enemies of the Aztecs together, he was able to win also because native Americans didn't have defenses against small pox and other diseases that came from Europe so he made his sick man to swim on their water reserves thus decimating the population and starting the world's first biological warfare.
He also brought with him technology and animals that weren't known in the American continent like Horses or armor and steel weapons and finally with the combination of all those things he was able to defeat the aztecs, but after that it took centuries for the spaniards to conquer all the territory that became La nueva España (the new spain).
Thanks for your post---I could not use the MOD CUT word on this forum, but you got away with it.....not too popular a subject, but you brought it up.
You're a brave person...

Last edited by NewToCA; 10-26-2007 at 08:45 PM..
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Old 10-26-2007, 09:15 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,628,664 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
Thanks for your post---I could not use the MOD CUT word on this forum, but you got away with it.....not too popular a subject, but you brought it up.
You're a brave person...
The phrase in question must be pretty bad in English.

Many Spanish swear words OTOH are innocent in other languages------and, proper last names as well.
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Old 10-26-2007, 09:23 PM
 
1,156 posts, read 1,875,396 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greatbasinguide View Post
I found this quote elsewhere on this forum;

Geography is what insured the success of European/Western Civilization. The Geography of Western Europe, mountainous, cut by river valleys, very difficult to create the large land empires of Asia for instance, but conducive to numerous antagonistic small states.

Because of the numerous principalities, some consisting of not much more than a particular river valley fighting each other constantly over centuries, European military tactics and weapons became vastly superior to those of other nations. There are sound reasons for the vast number of castles in Europe.

When the Euros became tired of fighting each other they set out to fight the rest of the world. They did a pretty good Job, by the beginning of the Twentieth Century only Ethiopia and Siam were not under the thumb of the Euros. It wasn't any particular genius of the Euros that allowed this, it was superior military ability.

One of the clear examples was the ability of the very small armed force under Cortez to defeat a very large Aztec army, tactics will beat mass.

Incidentally, that ability to organize successful armies, based on centuries of internecine warfare was extrapolated out to government, hence the successful political systems, based on the military systems.

You will notice however, that the areas once governed by Spain are commonly incapable of governing themselves. That will be lesson two, if anyone cares.
Success on many levels was and is in the core of the Euro-Western peoples, they are innovative. Every single civilization has it's own speical gifts
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Old 10-27-2007, 09:21 AM
 
Location: CA Coast
1,900 posts, read 1,708,575 times
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Two points;
Quote:
Combine this with many other factors---The English basically came as "families", to settle what was, for all practical purposes, an empty land. The local Indians were simply too few in number, and not sufficiently advanced, to really be a serious obstacle to the English.
Not true, the English landed in 1608. The Eastern Woodland tribes were not subdued for another 200 years. Interesting to consider the Iroquois Confederacy was 300 years old at the time of the entry of the English to the New world, and it still exists today. The American Senate representing states and the House of Representatives representing the people was copied from the Iroquois, as was the sedate manner of discussion, so unlike the British Parliament.

Quote:
Success on many levels was and is in the core of the Euro-Western peoples, they are innovative.
originating in the geography for the reasons I outlined.. As the Arabs who fought the Europeans in the Crusade said about the Europeans, that they were uneducated uncultured barbarians who could fight very well (they still say that).
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Old 10-27-2007, 09:46 AM
 
4,182 posts, read 5,660,148 times
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I agree with the "geography is destiny" explanation for European success. It has little to do with the alleged genetic, religious, or cultural superiority of the Europeans. This is explained very well in Jared Diamond's Pulitzer winner "Guns Germs and Steel". I can't recommend this book enough.
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Old 10-27-2007, 09:53 AM
 
Location: CA Coast
1,900 posts, read 1,708,575 times
Reputation: 350
I need to get that book, I have been aware of it, but I have never bought it.. mmm wonder if the local library has it.
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