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Old 04-11-2013, 12:42 PM
 
31,459 posts, read 14,559,147 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Astorian31 View Post
I said your attitude is racist. The fact that you think I'm not allowed to speak spanish in public, or to remember my roots is racist. Especially since I bet you wouldn't have a problem with me if I were an Irish American celebrating St. Patricks day.

Actually, most illegals are technically Americans since most come from the Americas. Semantics aside, no I don't believe illegals are "Americans," but that doesn't mean I don't recognize a lot of the problems with the immigration system in this country, or that many unemployed Americans consider themselves above certain jobs, or the dirty practices of many American employers.

Just because illegals aren't Americans doesn't mean they shouldn't be treated with respect, and thats where you and I, and the rest of the members on this board, differ. You all turn a blind eye to the problems we have and blame in all on the illegals. I don't know whether it's because of ignorance or racism, and I'm not sure which one is worse.
What does St. Patrick's Day have to do with language usage in our country? Being an American is a common term for a U.S. citizen. Nice try at spinning that one. We aren't citizens of an entire continent. We are citizens of the country we hold citizenship in.

There are hardly any jobs that Americans won't do for a fair wage. These employers are hiring illegal immigrants above them because they work cheaper and it increases their profits. It is against the law! BOTH the employers and their illegal employees are equally guilty! Yet you only want to blame the employers and some so-called lazy Americans who won't do those jobs but not the illegals themselves. Why is that?

Illegal immigrants are awarded basic human rights and that is all they are entitled to. If there is any racism or ignorance in this issue it is of those ethnocentrics who think their ethnic group here illegally should be given a pass on our immigration laws.

 
Old 04-11-2013, 01:34 PM
 
852 posts, read 809,711 times
Reputation: 1263
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldglory View Post
You were born here but still prefer speaking Spanish? Yet we are told how well Spanish speakers are assimilating into our society. It isn't about forbidding someone from speaking another language but it is about assimilating to our language out in mainstream. I couldn't care less what language ones chooses to speak at home.

It is just a cop out that we don't have the funds to deport every illegal alien who is caught. Yet there is legislation pending to allow millions of them to remain here aka amnesty? Who is going to cover the costs of makng sure they pay back taxes, learn English and all the necessary paperwork to make that happen? In regards to any taxes illegal immigrants may pay into our coffers it doesn't cover their social costs. I have many stats saved that prove that. I'll post them if you like.

Oh, the old two wrongs make a right with your off topic remarks about big corporations. FYI, I am no a hypocrite. I want all freeloaders held accountable and illegal immigrants need to be removed from our country because they are also a burden to our country.

Oh geez, here we go with the old crop picking argument again. Only 3-4% of illegals are picking crops and even for those jobs there are unlimited visas for legal, foreign farmworkers. What do you think the other
96-97% of illegals are doing? They are doing jobs Americans have always done for a fair wage until the influx of millions of illegals came along to reduce wages. They are also using fake or stolen documents which is a felony. Do you know how devastating it can be for a citizen if someone else is using their SS number? I find it ironic that you are complaining about big business when they are the ones who are benefitting from hiring this cheap, illegal labor making themselves richer while passing their social costs unto us. Why don't you want their illegal slaves removed from this country so they can't reap all this profit illegally?
I never said I prefer speaking Spanish. I speak whatever language most befits the situation or environment I'm in. If I'm in a spanish neighborhood, and someone comes to speak to me in spanish, I will respond in spanish. If I'm speaking to one of my Japanese clients, I will speak in Japanese. If I'm out with work friends, I'll speak in English. Etc., etc... I do agree, 1st genration immigrants need to better assimilate with our language, though.

Show me your many stats because I assume most of them will be refuted right here: Factcheck.org

I never said two wrongs make a right. I'm saying we prioritize. I think holding free loading corporations at account is more important then going after every single free loading illegal immigrant.

My example about farm workers are just that, an example. Yes, farm workers are a small part of illegal immigrants, but they account for over 50 percent of farm workers in the US, some estimates even say illegals account for 80% of agricultural field workers. You would have to be ignorant to say that deporting all illegals is not going to drastically change that industry. Secondly, illegal immigrants, besides taking jobs normal americans wouldn't also take jobs for a lot less and without overtime. The construction industry is a great example of that, doing the same job and american would do for a 100,000 a year, and illegal will do for 25,000. Why? Because we all allow corporations to do that by not regulating and by choosing to do business with them. Anyone who uses anything that is a result of cheap American labor is a hypocrite.

The solution is simple, crack down on dirty American employers who rather hire an illegal to save money than American, and you reduce the draw for illegal immigrants. Thats the most cost effective way of dealing with illegal immigrants. But don't complain when prices go up because cheap labor is no longer available.

As far as amnesty goes, I have no problem with illegals who have paid taxes and/or are willing to pay fines and taxes to become legal. They're contributing more to our economy then Americans who would rather receive an unemployment check than work, or corporations who evade taxes. I'm all for deporting all illegals that evade taxes or are criminally dangerous.
 
Old 04-11-2013, 01:47 PM
 
9,243 posts, read 7,096,522 times
Reputation: 2199
Quote:
Originally Posted by Astorian31 View Post
Just because illegals aren't Americans doesn't mean they shouldn't be treated with respect, and thats where you and I, and the rest of the members on this board, differ. You all turn a blind eye to the problems we have and blame in all on the illegals. I don't know whether it's because of ignorance or racism, and I'm not sure which one is worse.
Do you respect someone that breaks into your home?

Quote:
I said your attitude is racist. The fact that you think I'm not allowed to speak spanish in public, or to remember my roots is racist. Especially since I bet you wouldn't have a problem with me if I were an Irish American celebrating St. Patricks day.
Since when is wanting illegals gone from this country racist?
Since when wanting immigrants to assimilate to us racist?

I never said you couldn't remember your roots. I said you can be respectful or disrespectful. There is a time & place to do this.

Quote:
Semantics aside, no I don't believe illegals are "Americans," but that doesn't mean I don't recognize a lot of the problems with the immigration system in this country, or that many unemployed Americans consider themselves above certain jobs, or the dirty practices of many American employers.
Which Americans?

Quote:
Actually, most illegals are technically Americans since most come from the Americas
No they are not American (from the USA).
 
Old 04-11-2013, 01:48 PM
 
852 posts, read 809,711 times
Reputation: 1263
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldglory View Post
What does St. Patrick's Day have to do with language usage in our country? Being an American is a common term for a U.S. citizen. Nice try at spinning that one. We aren't citizens of an entire continent. We are citizens of the country we hold citizenship in.

There are hardly any jobs that Americans won't do for a fair wage.

These employers are hiring illegal immigrants above them because they work cheaper and it increases their profits. It is against the law! BOTH the employers and their illegal employees are equally guilty! Yet you only want to blame the employers and some so-called lazy Americans who won't do those jobs but not the illegals themselves. Why is that?

Illegal immigrants are awarded basic human rights and that is all they are entitled to. If there is any racism or ignorance in this issue it is of those ethnocentrics who think their ethnic group here illegally should be given a pass on our immigration laws.
Celebrating St. Patricks Day is recognizing past heritage and culture, the same way speaking spanish is.

That statement is ridiculous. the concept of a "fair" wage is subjective. What do you consider a fair wage? What the market demands, or what people think they are entitled to? Many Americans would rather continue living in public housing on unemployment because the only jobs they are skilled for are minimum wage jobs that don't pay what they think they're entitle to. There's a false sense of entitlement in this country.

You don't understand how glad I am that you recognize American employers are at fault here too. However, I disagree about the equally guilty part. Illegal immigrants come to this country because they know they can find work, if they knew no one would hire them, they wouldn't come. We basically entice them to come, and then we get angry once they get here. The solution is simple, crack down on dirty employers and we crack down on illegal immigration without wasting billions of dollars in the process.
 
Old 04-11-2013, 02:02 PM
 
852 posts, read 809,711 times
Reputation: 1263
Quote:
Originally Posted by All American NYC View Post
Do you respect someone that breaks into your home?



Since when is wanting illegals gone from this country racist?
Since when wanting immigrants to assimilate to us racist?

I never said you couldn't remember your roots. I said you can be respectful or disrespectful. There is a time & place to do this.



Which Americans?



No they are not American (from the USA).
That a completely bogus analogy.

I never said wanting immigrants to assimilate is racist, I said wanting a ban on speaking spanish or remembering my roots only in private away from public eyes is racist.

By speaking spanish with fellow spanish speakers, I'm not hurting or disrespecting anyone. By saying I'm American born, but I'll always remember my roots does not meen I'm not assimilated. I don't have a problem with hasidic jews dressing the way they do, or with Christians wearing their crosses in public and preaching in public, or with the Irish holding a parade to celebrate their heritage once a year, with African American remembering what they fought for and having federal holidays, or with southerners publicly yearning for the old days of the south. Etc., etc. That why it baffles me that you would sugest that me speaking spanish is somehow disrespectful.
 
Old 04-11-2013, 02:08 PM
 
9,243 posts, read 7,096,522 times
Reputation: 2199
Quote:
Originally Posted by Astorian31 View Post

Wow, you know nothing about East Harlem or immigrants for that matter.

Most of East Harlem is Puerto Rican, and therefore most of East Harlem is here legally.

Most Dominicans in this country are here legally as well, because it's fairy simple for them to get visas to travel here legally.

Most Salvadorians are here legally because the US offered them asylum similar to Cubans..

Africans came here in chains by boat a long time ago, I shouldn't have to explain that.

There are illegals in East Harlem, but much of East Harlem is here legally. Nice try, though.
Thats not true. You forgot to mention Asians, Caucasians, Africans who voluntarily came from Africa.....East harlem is very mix & I beg to differ that its mostly Puerto Ricans. Nice curve ball.

Quote:
The fact that people speak Spanish in public does not mean they cannot speak English. But if there is one thing I do agree with is that many 1st generation immigrants should make a stronger effort to learn English. However, since many people speak Spanish, it's easy for many 1st generations immigrants to never need to learn the language.
If one burp & fart in public are they respectful?

Quote:
If you went to another country where English was not the main language, but a big portion of the population could speak it, you would not make as big an effort to learn the language. There are many Americans living in Hong Kong who do not know Chinese and have no desire to do so.
You have proof?

You can't tell me what I would not do. I would seriously make an effort to learn the language of that country & excel.


Quote:
Wow, you couldn't be more wrong. There is no one American culture. Is the culture of an 4th generation Italian american the same as the culture of an African American descendent of slaves? Is the culture of the South the same as the North, or the West? No it is not. The list goes on. America does not have one culture and one heritage, it has hundreds. Thats not say there's nothing that doesn't unite our cultures. We all have a love for this country, and the opportunities and freedoms this country has given us. English may have not been part of my family's culture, but beginning with me, it is. I'll always consider myself an American first, and a Hispanic second, but that doesn't meet I'm going to forget where I come from.
There is an American culture & its foundation is English, its sad you don't know that.

You keep mentioning forgetting where you came from. It seem like you or your family left wherever they were and just left everything behind to come here. If you are not from here where did you come from since you don't want to forget?
 
Old 04-11-2013, 02:21 PM
 
9,243 posts, read 7,096,522 times
Reputation: 2199
Quote:
Originally Posted by Astorian31 View Post


By speaking spanish with fellow spanish speakers, I'm not hurting or disrespecting anyone. By saying I'm American born, but I'll always remember my roots does not meen I'm not assimilated. I don't have a problem with hasidic jews dressing the way they do, or with Christians wearing their crosses in public and preaching in public, or with the Irish holding a parade to celebrate their heritage once a year, with African American remembering what they fought for and having federal holidays, or with southerners publicly yearning for the old days of the south. Etc., etc. That why it baffles me that you would sugest that me speaking spanish is somehow disrespectful.
What does crosses have to do with language?
What does parades have to do with language?

Many countries have many different parades & religions within their country if not all countries.

Many share one thing....Language. Those that don't are in constant conflict.

Quote:
I never said wanting immigrants to assimilate is racist, I said wanting a ban on speaking spanish or remembering my roots only in private away from public eyes is racist.

Quote me on saying that

There is a time & place for that.
 
Old 04-11-2013, 02:34 PM
 
852 posts, read 809,711 times
Reputation: 1263
Quote:
Originally Posted by All American NYC View Post
Thats not true. You forgot to mention Asians, Caucasians, Africans who voluntarily came from Africa.....East harlem is very mix & I beg to differ that its mostly Puerto Ricans. Nice curve ball.

If one burp & fart in public are they respectful?

You have proof?

You can't tell me what I would not do. I would seriously make an effort to learn the language of that country & excel.


There is an American culture & its foundation is English, its sad you don't know that.

You keep mentioning forgetting where you came from. It seem like you or your family left wherever they were and just left everything behind to come here. If you are not from here where did you come from since you don't want to forget?
Sigh. Let use data then. 47.6% of East Harlem is not Hispanic or Latino of any race, with 33.9% of East Harlem population being African American. 27.7% of all East Harlem residents classify solely as Puerto Rican. Add another 1% Cuban and 14% Hispanics of a non mexican origin (the majority of which are from El Salvador. ) It's safe to conclude that AT LEAST 89% of East Harlem residents are legal.

How do burps and farts even compare to speaking a language.

It's true, I can't tell what you would do, the same way you can't tell what you do in a position you've never been in. I was just stating what is more LIKELY to happen. I can go around telling people I would jump in front of a bullet to protect a loved one, but until you're in that situation, you have no way of knowing what you will do.

No, there are several American cultures, most which share a common language. We and the Amish are both American, but we do not share one culture.

My parents did not leave everything behind. They bought over their traditions, their culture, their language. But I am not my parents, I did not leave a foreign country to make a life for myself here, I was born here and my culture is mixture of what my parents gave me and what this country has given me, just the same as everyone else.
 
Old 04-11-2013, 02:45 PM
 
852 posts, read 809,711 times
Reputation: 1263
Quote:
Originally Posted by All American NYC View Post
What does crosses have to do with language?
What does parades have to do with language?

Many countries have many different parades & religions within their country if not all countries.

Many share one thing....Language. Those that don't are in constant conflict.




Quote me on saying that

There is a time & place for that.

Crosses, parades, religion are all expressions of DIFFERENT CULTURES. Much in the same way that different languages are expressions of different cultures.

There are many languages and dialects in countries all over the world, and not all of them are constant conflict.

Did you or did you not say it's disrespectful to speak spanish in public?

I'm sorry, you seem to have forgotten about the bill of rights. Let me refresh your memory: Freedom of Speech, Freedom of Expression. Any of these ring a bell? How is me exercising my inalienable rights in public disrespectful?
 
Old 04-11-2013, 02:53 PM
 
31,459 posts, read 14,559,147 times
Reputation: 8346
Quote:
Originally Posted by Astorian31 View Post
I never said I prefer speaking Spanish. I speak whatever language most befits the situation or environment I'm in. If I'm in a spanish neighborhood, and someone comes to speak to me in spanish, I will respond in spanish. If I'm speaking to one of my Japanese clients, I will speak in Japanese. If I'm out with work friends, I'll speak in English. Etc., etc... I do agree, 1st genration immigrants need to better assimilate with our language, though.

Show me your many stats because I assume most of them will be refuted right here: Factcheck.org

I never said two wrongs make a right. I'm saying we prioritize. I think holding free loading corporations at account is more important then going after every single free loading illegal immigrant.

My example about farm workers are just that, an example. Yes, farm workers are a small part of illegal immigrants, but they account for over 50 percent of farm workers in the US, some estimates even say illegals account for 80% of agricultural field workers. You would have to be ignorant to say that deporting all illegals is not going to drastically change that industry. Secondly, illegal immigrants, besides taking jobs normal americans wouldn't also take jobs for a lot less and without overtime. The construction industry is a great example of that, doing the same job and american would do for a 100,000 a year, and illegal will do for 25,000. Why? Because we all allow corporations to do that by not regulating and by choosing to do business with them. Anyone who uses anything that is a result of cheap American labor is a hypocrite.

The solution is simple, crack down on dirty American employers who rather hire an illegal to save money than American, and you reduce the draw for illegal immigrants. Thats the most cost effective way of dealing with illegal immigrants. But don't complain when prices go up because cheap labor is no longer available.

As far as amnesty goes, I have no problem with illegals who have paid taxes and/or are willing to pay fines and taxes to become legal. They're contributing more to our economy then Americans who would rather receive an unemployment check than work, or corporations who evade taxes. I'm all for deporting all illegals that evade taxes or are criminally dangerous.
Illegal Aliens in Los Angeles County Cost Taxpayers 3 Billion Dollars Annually | An Angeleno's View of the World

Most Illegal Immigrant Families Collect Welfare | Judicial Watch

Illegal Immigrant Births - At Your Expense - CBS News

These are just the tip of the iceberg. This doesn't even account for the huge number of dollars they send out of our country as remittances to their homelands.

There is no reason to priortize our deporatations. Illegal immigrants are costing this country dearly whether they are felons or not. You can harp about corporations all you want. As I said we need to go after all cheaters in this country and going after illegal immigrants are among the biggest cheaters.

DHS confirms cheaper to deport every illegal alien than allowing them to stay - National Immigration Reform | Examiner.com

Did you miss the part where I said there are unlimited visas for legal, foreign farm workers? But some or many of the growers/farmers choose illegal immigrants instead because it increases their profits. You keep crying about the greedy employers/corporations and yet you turn around and defend them for hiring illegal immigrants instead of Americans just because they work cheaper and that increases their profits. Kind of a hypocritical stance to take, isn't it?

I have never known an American construction worker who made $100,000 a year. Who do you think you are kidding?

Every anti-illlegal immigrationist in this forum and outside of this forum wants these greedy employers cracked down on by using e-verify and fined and jailed also. It isn't always easy to prove that they "knowingly" hired illegal immigrants because the illegals produce such authentic looking fake or stolen ID. Many times it is the personnel dept. (many of whom share ethnic ties with them) who knowingly hired them not the employer himself. But that doesn't change the fact that illegal immigrants are just as guilty. It is simply a myth that prices would go up much due to the exit of illegal immigrants from our country. The employers are merely pocketing the profits. I would rather our country return to the rule of law anyway and see Americans put back to work than to worry about prices going up a bit. The social costs we wouldn't be putting out for these illegals would probably increase our incomes due to less taxes.

I guess you all for forgiving their felony ID thefts also? This whole amnesty fiasco would cost us billions in tax dollars to implement. If they were deported instead American would be holding their jobs and they in turn would be contributing to our economy and paying taxes.
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