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Old 04-18-2013, 07:31 PM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,699,632 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IBMMuseum View Post
So, because you and others like "malamute" bring up things like medical insurance for legal immigrants (to not be a burden to their non-sponsor U.S. citizens), do legal immigrants pay enough taxes to cover their social costs? If the number of illegal aliens is unknown, or grossly overstated, how do you know they don't pay "enough" in taxes? What is a valid source for determining the "social costs" of illegal aliens? FAIR/CIS seems to trip over themselves rather heavily by mixing legal and illegal immigration.

Lastly, a question to the whole room. You're a U.S. citizen. What documentation do you carry with you on a daily basis to be able to prove it?

Just imagine that your wildest dreams about America became true, and any Barney with a badge can accost anyone on the street to inquire about their citizenship. I'm not talking about the officer letting you off because of accent or appearance. If you say nothing further than "driver's license", then you are an assumed legal resident without their "Green Card" (really, the most recent implementation is back to being green) in almost all states. In fact, with more states providing licenses to those without immigration status, why wouldn't that also be seen as encompassing illegal aliens?

It's a fitting follow-up for this topic, why talk about it in the abstract, and not in implementation?...
Speak of the devil -- here I am. Yes, sponsors of legal immigrants should be required to pay ALL their living costs which of course should include a nice health insurance plan, why should taxpayers be burdened with the costs of immigrants that benefit only you?

I've been stopped by border patrol agents -- no less than 3 times and they really don't need to see your papers. I didn't always have mine but if I did, they didn't have to see them. It's kind of easy -- if you can speak English, you might not be an illegal. If you know what county you were born in, you might not be an illegal -- that's a trick question you see -- illegals might know to say they were born in Albuquerque and they likely know it's a state called New Mexico but they didn't think about counties. They don't have those back home so they forgot to check out having a county.

There's some other trick questions I know about since I've been through this but I'm not going to tell you or you'll probably spill the beans and help illegals out.

I did find out more about the illegal who got picked up being involved in alien smuggling. They held him for about only a week -- and they told him he can probably get in on DACA and then the big amnesty -- even though alien smuggling is a felony crime, apparently it can be ignored.

He's got one big problem though. He still has to go back to court and show that he's working a steady job (so he doesn't have to get involved in trafficking) but his employer won't write a notarized letter because now she's afraid she might get caught employing illegals. He actually could end up deported after all.

Same with another guy that's not an illegal. He just got picked up for a DWI and is now worried he could be deported because he's only a legal resident. Amnesty might not come fast enough for some lawbreakers and the irony is that it is probably not going to do the legal guy any good at all -- there's no amnesty for legal residents who choose to break the laws.

Don't worry though -- a few years ago they deported another neighbor and he's happy to be back home, his government helped him get started back up in farming so he's got some goats and cows and says he'd rather work his own farm than be some guy's cheap servant here. It can work out just fine for those who go back home.
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Old 04-18-2013, 08:08 PM
 
Location: California
2,477 posts, read 1,711,425 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IBMMuseum View Post
So, because you and others like "malamute" bring up things like medical insurance for legal immigrants (to not be a burden to their non-sponsor U.S. citizens), do legal immigrants pay enough taxes to cover their social costs? If the number of illegal aliens is unknown, or grossly overstated, how do you know they don't pay "enough" in taxes? What is a valid source for determining the "social costs" of illegal aliens? FAIR/CIS seems to trip over themselves rather heavily by mixing legal and illegal immigration.
I can swear I quoted Hanson in this topic. But lets add Borjas to that since all economic studies use his findings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IBMMuseum View Post
Lastly, a question to the whole room. You're a U.S. citizen. What documentation do you carry with you on a daily basis to be able to prove it?
I have my US passport stating I am a citizen that I take with me on a daily basis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IBMMuseum View Post
Just imagine that your wildest dreams about America became true, and any Barney with a badge can accost anyone on the street to inquire about their citizenship. I'm not talking about the officer letting you off because of accent or appearance. If you say nothing further than "driver's license", then you are an assumed legal resident without their "Green Card" (really, the most recent implementation is back to being green) in almost all states. In fact, with more states providing licenses to those without immigration status, why wouldn't that also be seen as encompassing illegal aliens?
The license being provided to illegals (DACA) usually have a disclaimer on them, even though they are illegals they are here by way of authorization from DHS.

Last edited by Liquid Reigns; 04-18-2013 at 08:18 PM..
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Old 04-18-2013, 09:26 PM
 
Location: Jacurutu
5,302 posts, read 4,010,077 times
Reputation: 601
Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
Speak of the devil -- here I am. Yes, sponsors of legal immigrants should be required to pay ALL their living costs which of course should include a nice health insurance plan, why should taxpayers be burdened with the costs of immigrants that benefit only you?
So the question was whether legal immigrants pay more in taxes than their "social costs". Phrased in the first person, "my" immigrant family had, and still has, a rather nice health insurance plan upon arrival in the United States. I have paid all medical bills that it does not cover.

Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
...I've been stopped by border patrol agents -- no less than 3 times and they really don't need to see your papers. I didn't always have mine but if I did, they didn't have to see them. It's kind of easy -- if you can speak English, you might not be an illegal. If you know what county you were born in, you might not be an illegal -- that's a trick question you see -- illegals might know to say they were born in Albuquerque and they likely know it's a state called New Mexico but they didn't think about counties. They don't have those back home so they forgot to check out having a county...
But the Border Patrol can only request a statement of citizenship from U.S. citizens currently - They cannot require you to produce proof within the boundaries of the United States. You failed to identify what you are regarding as your "papers" specifically denoting your U.S. citizenship - a document you would carry with you daily (saying "I didn't always have mine" sounds like a U.S. passport).


Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
...There's some other trick questions I know about since I've been through this but I'm not going to tell you or you'll probably spill the beans and help illegals out...
Unless they read this forum, I know of no illegal aliens I can tell firsthand. There is no trick question here. It is simply asking U.S. citizens what they think they carry that identifies them as a U.S. citizen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
...I did find out more about the illegal who got picked up being involved in alien smuggling. They held him for about only a week -- and they told him he can probably get in on DACA and then the big amnesty -- even though alien smuggling is a felony crime, apparently it can be ignored.

He's got one big problem though. He still has to go back to court and show that he's working a steady job (so he doesn't have to get involved in trafficking) but his employer won't write a notarized letter because now she's afraid she might get caught employing illegals. He actually could end up deported after all.

Same with another guy that's not an illegal. He just got picked up for a DWI and is now worried he could be deported because he's only a legal resident. Amnesty might not come fast enough for some lawbreakers and the irony is that it is probably not going to do the legal guy any good at all -- there's no amnesty for legal residents who choose to break the laws.

Don't worry though -- a few years ago they deported another neighbor and he's happy to be back home, his government helped him get started back up in farming so he's got some goats and cows and says he'd rather work his own farm than be some guy's cheap servant here. It can work out just fine for those who go back home.
But I didn't give a reason to respond to my post with any further stories or far-off final words to another topic, which would make them deflections here...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquid Reigns View Post
I can swear I quoted Hanson in this topic. But lets add Borjas to that since all economic studies use his findings...
I would doubt, expert as anyone would be, that they are used in "all" studies of a subject (even Einstein)...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquid Reigns View Post
...I have my US passport stating I am a citizen that I take with me on a daily basis...
You do, many U.S. citizens do not (within the border region, I do not unless planning to cross back at the border). Do you perceive your passport as a daily necessity for your area? You and I have extensively discussed that a standard (brown cover) U.S. passport doesn't specify whether the bearer is a U.S. citizen or a U.S. national without citizenship.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquid Reigns View Post
...The license being provided to illegals (DACA) usually have a disclaimer on them, even though they are illegals they are here by way of authorization from DHS.
I'm referring to current driver's licenses, which do not (as far as I know, one state is the single exception) have any comparative differences to one a Legal Permanent Resident would be issued (my wife has not even had to renew a license issued to her while she was a non-immigrant under a K-3). Specifically to the question "are you a U.S. citizen", a driver's license (other than Maine) is not proof to that claim.

A Legal Permanent Resident below the age of 18 (which can mean driving age in the later years) isn't even required to carry their "Green Card" constantly. You carry your passport daily, which means you feel it provides some needed identification that other documents do not. From a Libertarian perspective, tell us how our society can implement police checks on the masses for citizenship.
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Old 04-18-2013, 11:23 PM
 
156 posts, read 111,818 times
Reputation: 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by andywire View Post
Yes, but the elderly aren't a one party populous. The democraps are going to make damn sure they do everything possible to please the law breaking illegals, even if it means throwing the greatest generation under the bus.
I have a feeling they will have competition from some of the pandering Republicans. It's a sad state we've come to.
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Old 04-19-2013, 06:59 AM
 
31,483 posts, read 14,565,596 times
Reputation: 8352
Quote:
Originally Posted by IBMMuseum View Post
So, because you and others like "malamute" bring up things like medical insurance for legal immigrants (to not be a burden to their non-sponsor U.S. citizens), do legal immigrants pay enough taxes to cover their social costs? If the number of illegal aliens is unknown, or grossly overstated, how do you know they don't pay "enough" in taxes? What is a valid source for determining the "social costs" of illegal aliens? FAIR/CIS seems to trip over themselves rather heavily by mixing legal and illegal immigration.

Lastly, a question to the whole room. You're a U.S. citizen. What documentation do you carry with you on a daily basis to be able to prove it?

Just imagine that your wildest dreams about America became true, and any Barney with a badge can accost anyone on the street to inquire about their citizenship. I'm not talking about the officer letting you off because of accent or appearance. If you say nothing further than "driver's license", then you are an assumed legal resident without their "Green Card" (really, the most recent implementation is back to being green) in almost all states. In fact, with more states providing licenses to those without immigration status, why wouldn't that also be seen as encompassing illegal aliens?

It's a fitting follow-up for this topic, why talk about it in the abstract, and not in implementation?...
Don't you recall the link I posted about Parkland Hospital in Dallas as to how many illegal immigrant mothers give birth there and have no health insurance? That is just the tip of the iceberg and you know it. As for legal immigrants I don't know if they pay in enough taxes to cover their social costs and I never said otherwise. This is the illegal immigration forum anyway.

Most Americans carry their DL or state ID with them most of the time. One doesn't have to prove that they are a citizen of this country only that they are here legally so I don't get what point you are trying to make by that question.

Why should we imagine your scenario when that isn't what is happening in this country and I am not aware that there are any plans to do so. Talk about fear mongering.
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Old 04-19-2013, 07:08 AM
 
31,483 posts, read 14,565,596 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by majesticat View Post
I have a feeling they will have competition from some of the pandering Republicans. It's a sad state we've come to.
That's only in the Senate. Most Republicans in the House will not pander and do object to an amnesty. IWO, saner heads will prevail in the House.
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Old 04-19-2013, 10:35 AM
 
Location: California
2,477 posts, read 1,711,425 times
Reputation: 299
Quote:
Originally Posted by IBMMuseum View Post
You do, many U.S. citizens do not (within the border region, I do not unless planning to cross back at the border). Do you perceive your passport as a daily necessity for your area? You and I have extensively discussed that a standard (brown cover) U.S. passport doesn't specify whether the bearer is a U.S. citizen or a U.S. national without citizenship.
NO, I simply keep it with me, old habit from when in Europe and carrying it with me.



Quote:
Originally Posted by IBMMuseum View Post
I'm referring to current driver's licenses, which do not (as far as I know, one state is the single exception) have any comparative differences to one a Legal Permanent Resident would be issued (my wife has not even had to renew a license issued to her while she was a non-immigrant under a K-3). Specifically to the question "are you a U.S. citizen", a driver's license (other than Maine) is not proof to that claim.
I agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IBMMuseum View Post
A Legal Permanent Resident below the age of 18 (which can mean driving age in the later years) isn't even required to carry their "Green Card" constantly. You carry your passport daily, which means you feel it provides some needed identification that other documents do not. From a Libertarian perspective, tell us how our society can implement police checks on the masses for citizenship.
Again, NO, I simply carry it with me as a habit from being in Europe. I'm not a Libertarian so I can't give a Libertarian perspective.

Police can not implement "citizenship" checks on the masses. However, during the course of a stop they can ask questions during which time they may conclude one is not a citizen. They can then run a check on them as well. Another time they can do such is when a person is in custody.
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Old 04-19-2013, 06:10 PM
 
Location: Jacurutu
5,302 posts, read 4,010,077 times
Reputation: 601
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldglory View Post
Don't you recall the link I posted about Parkland Hospital in Dallas as to how many illegal immigrant mothers give birth there and have no health insurance? That is just the tip of the iceberg and you know it. As for legal immigrants I don't know if they pay in enough taxes to cover their social costs and I never said otherwise. This is the illegal immigration forum anyway...
The topic asks if someone is a U.S. citizen, with the OP using a term of "non-citizen" to contrast those that have not "paid taxes their whole lives" assumably like U.S. citizens have. More data and determined numbers (other than 2009) should make it easier to know whether legal immigrants pay their share. Otherwise, one statistic cannot define the characteristics about an unknown number of illegal immigrants.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldglory View Post
...Most Americans carry their DL or state ID with them most of the time...
So would most Legal Permanent Residents, but that doesn't show their lack of U.S. citizenship. Just because someone has a driver's license doesn't mean they have current legal status in the United States. Follow the logic:

Police: "Prove that you are legally present."

You: "Here is my driver's license."

Police: "Where is your Resident Card?"

You: "I'm a U.S. citizen."

Police: "How can you prove that?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldglory View Post
...One doesn't have to prove that they are a citizen of this country only that they are here legally so I don't get what point you are trying to make by that question...
Legal Permanent Residents over the age of 18 are required to carry their Resident Card with them at all times (violations are a misdemeanor under immigration law), and must present it along with stating their status to an official in an enforcement position on request. Those of an age above 14 should not answer falsely that they are U.S. citizen. If you only offer proof that you may be an LPR, you might be assumed to be one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldglory View Post
...Why should we imagine your scenario when that isn't what is happening in this country and I am not aware that there are any plans to do so. Talk about fear mongering.
How many times has there been gleeful hand rubbing here when someone suggests that police should have an ability to check everyone's immigration status?...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquid Reigns View Post
NO, I simply keep it [a U.S. passport] with me, old habit from when in Europe and carrying it with me...
That's a strange habit to keep in the atmosphere of the United States...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquid Reigns View Post
...Police can not implement "citizenship" checks on the masses. However, during the course of a stop they can ask questions during which time they may conclude one is not a citizen. They can then run a check on them as well. Another time they can do such is when a person is in custody.
Correct, most talking about police checks of U.S. citizenship don't realize detention facilities do it as a matter of policy...
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Old 04-19-2013, 06:28 PM
 
20,611 posts, read 12,282,218 times
Reputation: 5895
Quote:
Originally Posted by IBMMuseum View Post
The topic asks if someone is a U.S. citizen, with the OP using a term of "non-citizen" to contrast those that have not "paid taxes their whole lives" assumably like U.S. citizens have. More data and determined numbers (other than 2009) should make it easier to know whether legal immigrants pay their share. Otherwise, one statistic cannot define the characteristics about an unknown number of illegal immigrants.



So would most Legal Permanent Residents, but that doesn't show their lack of U.S. citizenship. Just because someone has a driver's license doesn't mean they have current legal status in the United States. Follow the logic:

Police: "Prove that you are legally present."

You: "Here is my driver's license."

Police: "Where is your Resident Card?"

You: "I'm a U.S. citizen."

Police: "How can you prove that?"



Legal Permanent Residents over the age of 18 are required to carry their Resident Card with them at all times (violations are a misdemeanor under immigration law), and must present it along with stating their status to an official in an enforcement position on request. Those of an age above 14 should not answer falsely that they are U.S. citizen. If you only offer proof that you may be an LPR, you might be assumed to be one.



How many times has there been gleeful hand rubbing here when someone suggests that police should have an ability to check everyone's immigration status?...



That's a strange habit to keep in the atmosphere of the United States...



Correct, most talking about police checks of U.S. citizenship don't realize detention facilities do it as a matter of policy...
MOST states DON'T give DL's to illegal aliens. If "Jose" or "Padraig" have a US DL that's real; they're probably here legally.
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Old 04-19-2013, 09:56 PM
 
31,483 posts, read 14,565,596 times
Reputation: 8352
Quote:
Originally Posted by IBMMuseum View Post
The topic asks if someone is a U.S. citizen, with the OP using a term of "non-citizen" to contrast those that have not "paid taxes their whole lives" assumably like U.S. citizens have. More data and determined numbers (other than 2009) should make it easier to know whether legal immigrants pay their share. Otherwise, one statistic cannot define the characteristics about an unknown number of illegal immigrants.



So would most Legal Permanent Residents, but that doesn't show their lack of U.S. citizenship. Just because someone has a driver's license doesn't mean they have current legal status in the United States. Follow the logic:

Police: "Prove that you are legally present."

You: "Here is my driver's license."

Police: "Where is your Resident Card?"

You: "I'm a U.S. citizen."

Police: "How can you prove that?"



Legal Permanent Residents over the age of 18 are required to carry their Resident Card with them at all times (violations are a misdemeanor under immigration law), and must present it along with stating their status to an official in an enforcement position on request. Those of an age above 14 should not answer falsely that they are U.S. citizen. If you only offer proof that you may be an LPR, you might be assumed to be one.



How many times has there been gleeful hand rubbing here when someone suggests that police should have an ability to check everyone's immigration status?...



That's a strange habit to keep in the atmosphere of the United States...



Correct, most talking about police checks of U.S. citizenship don't realize detention facilities do it as a matter of policy...
You tell me why a police officer would want proof of citizenship from anyone. Normally during a traffic stop they would only ask to to see your DL. If you have a valid one why would they further question whether you are a citizen, a legal immigrant or an illegal alien? This is the same false claim that was made about 287G in Arizona.
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