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Old 11-26-2013, 11:30 AM
 
Location: TX
6,009 posts, read 4,946,507 times
Reputation: 2585

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Quote:
Originally Posted by All American NYC View Post
If they were not wrong then there would be no laws for them. Apparently they are wrong.
Well, that's disturbingly simple.


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Kohlberg’s stages of moral development | Abagond

Quote:
Originally Posted by Packard fan View Post
Uh; since ALL countries have borders; it ain't wrong to enforce them. Sheesh!
I'm not saying we shouldn't stop people from just coming in by the hundreds. There is most certainly good rationale behind screening them - keeping violent criminals, harmful drug dealers, and sex offenders out of our country. But an ordinary person crossing this imaginary line (even illegally) is doing nothing morally wrong and I don't see why we'd waste further resources taking them back out of the country.

At any rate, I was just pointing out that not all criminals are people who've done something truly wrong and therefore I'm fine with a fraction of them being "rewarded" with citizenship, sure.
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Old 11-26-2013, 11:38 AM
 
1,821 posts, read 1,986,003 times
Reputation: 2576
What we really want is for the government to decide what the law is and then follow the law. Today and 100 years from now. We all know that we no longer need immigrants or green cards or other non citizens in this country working as citizens. We no longer have the jobs available, or money for the social services. So resolve the current question but whatever is decided then follow the law for the future.
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Old 11-26-2013, 02:06 PM
 
31,500 posts, read 14,580,770 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mortpes View Post
What we really want is for the government to decide what the law is and then follow the law. Today and 100 years from now. We all know that we no longer need immigrants or green cards or other non citizens in this country working as citizens. We no longer have the jobs available, or money for the social services. So resolve the current question but whatever is decided then follow the law for the future.

Our government already knows what our laws are. After all it is they that implement them. They just don't enforce them like they are suppose to. At least not our immigration laws they don't. If they made any new laws in regards to immigration they wouldn't enforce them either. Their track record stinks. We have a president who makes his own laws in regards to immigration and bypasses congress.
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Old 11-26-2013, 02:11 PM
 
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Here we go with demonizing whites over the past again. There were no immigration laws before this country was formed and today we have a real border line not an imaginary one and also there are immigration laws in place. All countries have bounderies and immigration laws today.

Lawbreakers always take risks to break the law. Are we to commend them for that?
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Old 11-26-2013, 02:32 PM
 
Location: TX
6,009 posts, read 4,946,507 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldglory View Post
Here we go with demonizing whites over the past again. There were no immigration laws before this country was formed and today we have a real border line not an imaginary one and also there are immigration laws in place. All countries have bounderies and immigration laws today.
I can only assume you're referring to my argument here. I'm not demonizing whites; I am white! All I said was that we crossed an imaginary line into what even most natives surely felt was their territory. Civilization as we know it did not invent the concept of territory or even boundaries. The concept of territory is very natural and infiltrates even animal behavior. And no, I don't think there's any objective way of showing that our borders are any more "real" than the natives'. Laws are made up too. Changes nothing in reality that we have sheets of paper that say "This is my ground, you have no right to walk on it".

But again, I'm not saying we shouldn't keep people from just coming in as they please. It makes sense to regulate just who we let live among us. But I have yet to hear a good solid argument as to why illegal immigrants who are found to be decent people need to be taken back across the border instead of given citizenship.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldglory View Post
Lawbreakers always take risks to break the law. Are we to commend them for that?
Depends on the law. And sometimes the reason for breaking it. Sorry, I'll never think the law of the land and morality are necessarily connected. There are too many ignorant ones for me to see it that way
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Old 11-26-2013, 02:42 PM
 
20,611 posts, read 12,290,347 times
Reputation: 5895
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0 View Post
Well, that's disturbingly simple.


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Kohlberg’s stages of moral development | Abagond



I'm not saying we shouldn't stop people from just coming in by the hundreds. There is most certainly good rationale behind screening them - keeping violent criminals, harmful drug dealers, and sex offenders out of our country. But an ordinary person crossing this imaginary line (even illegally) is doing nothing morally wrong and I don't see why we'd waste further resources taking them back out of the country.

At any rate, I was just pointing out that not all criminals are people who've done something truly wrong and therefore I'm fine with a fraction of them being "rewarded" with citizenship, sure.
Principle: my feelings AGAINST illegal aliens.

Avoiding punishment: illegal aliens because they KNOW what can happen to them.
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Old 11-26-2013, 02:49 PM
 
14,298 posts, read 7,729,681 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lifeexplorer View Post
Everybody should be for a path to the citizenship, and there has always been one. That is go home and apply for legal residency like every legal immigrant.

So what's the problem?
It's like everyone should be able to go see an opera, a ballet, a Broadway play, a movie or a rock concert, but go buy a ticket, don't sneak in thru the kitchen and then demand a balcony seat and a free box of popcorn. And don't use the excuse that since you sneaked in your children too, they should get to watch Ice Age 4, or you'll accuse people of being heartless and cruel.
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Old 11-26-2013, 02:54 PM
 
31,500 posts, read 14,580,770 times
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Coming in by the hundreds? Um no, coming in by the thousands every day which results in millions overall.

There is no imaginary line. Our borders and the borders of every country are set in stone. How does one tell what the reason someone is trying to enter is unless we enforce our immigration laws by demanding they bring the proper papers with them rather than sneaking in without inspection?

It is morally wrong to come here illegally because it is negatively impacting our own citizens in so many ways. It is also unlawful but some don't care about laws I guess especially U.S. laws. You never hear these hypocrites cry about Mexican immigration laws or any other country's immigration laws.
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Old 11-26-2013, 03:09 PM
 
Location: TX
6,009 posts, read 4,946,507 times
Reputation: 2585
Quote:
Originally Posted by Packard fan View Post
Principle: my feelings AGAINST illegal aliens.

Avoiding punishment: illegal aliens because they KNOW what can happen to them.
And what are these feelings against illegals based on?

The illegals are also operating on principle, not the notion of avoiding punishment. They are actually seeking a better life for themselves and/or their families even though they could get caught or even die for their efforts.

But if you're telling me your principles are what motivate your opinion on this, that's at least better than "Cuz the law says", in my view.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldglory View Post
Coming in by the hundreds? Um no, coming in by the thousands every day which results in millions overall.
Regardless, I'm telling you that I'm fine with all the screening and border control. Heck, I'd even support tightening border security even more (assuming it will either lessen or keep tragedy at the level it's at now).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldglory View Post
There is no imaginary line. Our borders and the borders of every country are set in stone.
That no one intends to move these imaginary lines doesn't make them real, either. Doesn't make it truly immoral for a citizen of one country to cross one of them into another. Not at all. This act hurts no one, in and of itself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldglory View Post
How does one tell what the reason someone is trying to enter is unless we enforce our immigration laws by demanding they bring the proper papers with them rather than sneaking in without inspection?
How do we know most of them haven't tried that first? And that's not the debate here. The debate is, once you've caught someone who's here illegally, why can't you have your little "inspection" before taking them back? Is the former truly more of a hassle than the latter, when all you really need to know is their criminal background and if they're on drugs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldglory View Post
It is morally wrong to come here illegally because it is negatively impacting our own citizens in so many ways.
Them just being here isn't hurting anyone. Or is this a "They're stealing our jobs and womenfolk" sort of thing?
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Old 11-26-2013, 03:46 PM
 
20,611 posts, read 12,290,347 times
Reputation: 5895
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldglory View Post
Coming in by the hundreds? Um no, coming in by the thousands every day which results in millions overall.

There is no imaginary line. Our borders and the borders of every country are set in stone. How does one tell what the reason someone is trying to enter is unless we enforce our immigration laws by demanding they bring the proper papers with them rather than sneaking in without inspection?

It is morally wrong to come here illegally because it is negatively impacting our own citizens in so many ways. It is also unlawful but some don't care about laws I guess especially U.S. laws. You never hear these hypocrites cry about Mexican immigration laws or any other country's immigration laws.
Agreed.

Some things NEED to be set in stone and a country's borders are a real good example of that.
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