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Old 12-22-2013, 05:59 PM
 
20,611 posts, read 12,282,218 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manbylake View Post
You just don't seem to get it. Why do you think and who do you think would want undocumented immigrants to pay a tax? The whole point is to make it easier for them to come here so that businesses can reduce labor cost and increase productivity. Adding conditions on undocumented immigrants would reduce labor supply thus increase labor cost. The point of not separating families is to provide a good environment for them to thrive, work hard, pay tax, and create a better future for their families. The two parties' line is that if these immigrants are willing to come here and work hard, more power to them and more power to businesses that thrive as a result. Our businesses favor immigrants also because immigrants don't have unnecessary entitlements, are willing to learn and better themselves, are very hard working, and have a good birthrate to sustain family values, which have apparently gone downhill among liberal European Americans. American businesses need immigrants because they no longer need a culturally privileged population who want to get more and work less. They no longer need a population that learn to criticize business before they learn a trade. They no longer need a population whose desired wage would put American businesses at a serious disadvantage in global competition. They no longer need a population who have thrown away multiplying and embraced anti-consumerism. What American businesses NEED are people who are willing to learn, work hard, and contribute to and benefit from economic growth. European liberalism is a much bigger problem than undocumented immigrants. With the current demographic trends, America in 2050 will be much more family-valued, entrepreneurial, hardworking, kind of like the traditional America in a way.
I'm Ok with legal aliens coming here. It's ILLEGAL aliens that are trouble and need to be treated for what they are which is lawbreakers.

Yes; SOME Americans are lazy butts, NOT all of us.
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Old 12-22-2013, 06:05 PM
 
Location: TX
6,009 posts, read 4,944,504 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manbylake View Post
You just don't seem to get it. Why do you think and who do you think would want undocumented immigrants to pay a tax?
What on earth are you talking about? I said that whoever's made a legal citizen would then have to pay taxes (and could be made to pay a special tax for their oh-so-horrible crossing of the U.S. border without our permission) because they wouldn't be undocumented any longer.

After reading the rest of your post, I'm not real sure which side of the debate you're on. It's possible we agree on this subject, which would make your reply to one of my posts... odd, to say the least.
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Old 12-22-2013, 07:05 PM
 
139 posts, read 170,795 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0 View Post
What on earth are you talking about? I said that whoever's made a legal citizen would then have to pay taxes (and could be made to pay a special tax for their oh-so-horrible crossing of the U.S. border without our permission) because they wouldn't be undocumented any longer.

After reading the rest of your post, I'm not real sure which side of the debate you're on. It's possible we agree on this subject, which would make your reply to one of my posts... odd, to say the least.
LOL. You are suggesting that there are only two sides of this? That's apparently the problem of how people perceive it. It's not just liberals pro-immigration and conservatives anti-immigration. It's much more complex than that. Businesses, for example, are all pro-immigration. Conservatives are also pro-business. Liberals can often be critical of big business. It's not a dichotomy.

And who said it's "oh-so-horrible"? It's the Obama administration that started sending people back until people couldn't take it anymore. They are pro-immigration? Really? Scott Walker, governor of Wisconsin, was much friendlier to immigration. He is for making immigration easier so that no one has to hide. You see how the two party seems to differ and how they actually differ (or resemble)? Many immigrants are very entrepreneurial. They come from countries that share more with the GOP's economic philosophy than the Dems'. They are much more accustomed to a competitive and hardworking environment than a pot-smoking and nude-beach kind of liberal elitist environment. They may share a lot with the Dems because of their racial minority status, but that's not everything. Immigrants are retaining the American suburban lifestyle as Dems have come to blame it. Immigrants may not want a union but Dems want it. You will see immigrant communities much more split between the two parties in the future, just as you see more whites realizing that GOP isn't all for them. If Dems welcome immigrants, feel free. But immigrants and businesses make their own decisions.
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Old 12-22-2013, 08:03 PM
 
Location: TX
6,009 posts, read 4,944,504 times
Reputation: 2585
Quote:
Originally Posted by manbylake View Post
LOL. You are suggesting that there are only two sides of this? That's apparently the problem of how people perceive it. It's not just liberals pro-immigration and conservatives anti-immigration. It's much more complex than that. Businesses, for example, are all pro-immigration. Conservatives are also pro-business. Liberals can often be critical of big business. It's not a dichotomy.

And who said it's "oh-so-horrible"? It's the Obama administration that started sending people back until people couldn't take it anymore. They are pro-immigration? Really? Scott Walker, governor of Wisconsin, was much friendlier to immigration. He is for making immigration easier so that no one has to hide. You see how the two party seems to differ and how they actually differ (or resemble)? Many immigrants are very entrepreneurial. They come from countries that share more with the GOP's economic philosophy than the Dems'. They are much more accustomed to a competitive and hardworking environment than a pot-smoking and nude-beach kind of liberal elitist environment. They may share a lot with the Dems because of their racial minority status, but that's not everything. Immigrants are retaining the American suburban lifestyle as Dems have come to blame it. Immigrants may not want a union but Dems want it. You will see immigrant communities much more split between the two parties in the future, just as you see more whites realizing that GOP isn't all for them. If Dems welcome immigrants, feel free. But immigrants and businesses make their own decisions.
I didn't mention liberals and conservatives, nor the "Dems" nor the GOP. I just opened the door for you to clarify which side of this specific topic you're standing on (Oh, and I didn't say there were only two possible sides, either)

The "oh-so-horrible" was to mock all the people here trying to make illegal immigration the crime of the century.
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Old 12-22-2013, 08:38 PM
 
20,611 posts, read 12,282,218 times
Reputation: 5895
Quote:
Originally Posted by manbylake View Post
LOL. You are suggesting that there are only two sides of this? That's apparently the problem of how people perceive it. It's not just liberals pro-immigration and conservatives anti-immigration. It's much more complex than that. Businesses, for example, are all pro-immigration. Conservatives are also pro-business. Liberals can often be critical of big business. It's not a dichotomy.

And who said it's "oh-so-horrible"? It's the Obama administration that started sending people back until people couldn't take it anymore. They are pro-immigration? Really? Scott Walker, governor of Wisconsin, was much friendlier to immigration. He is for making immigration easier so that no one has to hide. You see how the two party seems to differ and how they actually differ (or resemble)? Many immigrants are very entrepreneurial. They come from countries that share more with the GOP's economic philosophy than the Dems'. They are much more accustomed to a competitive and hardworking environment than a pot-smoking and nude-beach kind of liberal elitist environment. They may share a lot with the Dems because of their racial minority status, but that's not everything. Immigrants are retaining the American suburban lifestyle as Dems have come to blame it. Immigrants may not want a union but Dems want it. You will see immigrant communities much more split between the two parties in the future, just as you see more whites realizing that GOP isn't all for them. If Dems welcome immigrants, feel free. But immigrants and businesses make their own decisions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0 View Post
I didn't mention liberals and conservatives, nor the "Dems" nor the GOP. I just opened the door for you to clarify which side of this specific topic you're standing on (Oh, and I didn't say there were only two possible sides, either)

The "oh-so-horrible" was to mock all the people here trying to make illegal immigration the crime of the century.
Get in line and if the US wants immigration; we'll let those people know. Just DON'T come here or be here illegally, please.
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Old 12-22-2013, 08:46 PM
 
31,471 posts, read 14,565,596 times
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Actually, illegal immigration is a very serious issue today and mocking people's concerns about it is what the defenders of illegal aliens do to demonize and ridicule those concerns. We weren't born yesterday.

As for making them legal so that they will pay taxes it makes no sense because if they were deported instead Americans would get those jobs back and would in turn be paying taxes themselves then.
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Old 12-22-2013, 09:04 PM
 
Location: TX
6,009 posts, read 4,944,504 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldglory View Post
Actually, illegal immigration is a very serious issue today and mocking people's concerns about it is what the defenders of illegal aliens do to demonize and ridicule those concerns. We weren't born yesterday.

As for making them legal so that they will pay taxes it makes no sense because if they were deported instead Americans would get those jobs back and would in turn be paying taxes themselves then.
I'm sorry, I will just never believe that any significant fraction of unemployment is due to illegal immigration per se. I live in Texas, a state with an incredibly large portion of the estimated illegal immigrant population in the U.S. and also incredible job growth compared to most other states. Clearly, other factors play a vastly more important role.
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Old 12-22-2013, 09:07 PM
 
139 posts, read 170,795 times
Reputation: 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0 View Post
I didn't mention liberals and conservatives, nor the "Dems" nor the GOP. I just opened the door for you to clarify which side of this specific topic you're standing on (Oh, and I didn't say there were only two possible sides, either)

The "oh-so-horrible" was to mock all the people here trying to make illegal immigration the crime of the century.

Well, that depends on where you stand on this issue and what you value. To those who value a free market economy, undocumented immigration isn't necessarily a bad thing. It all comes down to supply and demand. With more labor supply, businesses can harvest more and business owners will get more. Workers are less likely to ask for a raise or organize because they are replaceable. It's an employers' market, not an employees. This is why lots of industries in the U.S. hire immigrant labor. Or they can also offshore these jobs.

Liberals who want more worker rights and protection are due for a harsh wakeup call. The system is designed to enrich businesses and affluent people who benefit from low cost labor. It is just not designed for workers' rights. You have little say if you can be easily replaced. There are millions of people who would love to work for Wendy's (and more potential "Americans" in Central America should Wendy's need them when current employees walk away). What we are seeing is the integration of labor markets between the U.S. and the world. The possibility of a strong middle class in solidarity is pretty much zero. Again, it's up to you to like or dislike. Good or bad? Different people think differently. Not everyone wants a strong middle class. Similarly, not everyone wants free market.

But these are pretty much the trends. What is funny is that people turn around and oppose what they supported or support what they opposed. A fraction of the left-leaning Occupy Movement, for instance, wants to reduce immigration. Okay, that's their views. But then they are left-leaning and they said they support immigration. How can a group be so conflicted, the same way the the Obama administration has been on immigration. It's a sort of double talk. Obama kept saying we need "smart" policies on immigration. Gee, if you really love something, you just love it; you don't become "smart" at it, unless you hint that you see it as a problem. Democrats, it seems, are secretly against immigration but don't want to say it. Republicans, it seems, are secretly for immigration's business benefits but don't want to to say it. Again, you can choose either way but you should be at least consistent.

Get reality straight and make decisions accordingly.
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Old 12-23-2013, 06:27 AM
 
Location: Las Vegas
5,877 posts, read 4,022,754 times
Reputation: 4130
Obviously this mess is very complex. However just legalizing all of the illegal immigrants that are here sets a bad precedent for the future. It shows that breaking the law can get you rewarded. It's just a flagrant disregard for the rule of law.

Also how is it far to the legal immigrants who did things the right way and went through with the process like they were supposed to? It probably cost them a lot of time and money to get the legal right to live and work here and then to just hand those rights over to illegals is unjust. How can we expect anyone to ever have any respect for the law ever again when they'll just think "I can just sneak across the border and lay low for awhile and eventually they'll give me legal status." Amnesty is just another step towards eliminating the borders and a nation without borders is no nation at all.
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Old 12-23-2013, 06:31 AM
 
16,438 posts, read 18,513,116 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KaaBoom View Post
I don't know anyone who agrees with that. Who are they polling?
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