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Old 12-23-2013, 06:43 AM
 
Location: Princeton
1,078 posts, read 1,051,726 times
Reputation: 2132

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I throw the BS Flag! that 60% of Americans support illegal criminals. Until, these criminals wave the American flag and WANT to be American citizens WITHOUT anything in it for them, I say, get the hell out of our country..

Wait, god forbid, something happens to one of you're loved ones, and the illegal criminal who committed the crime skips out and leaves back to his or her bun hole s#$t of a country and your left with no justice, I bet your tune supporting these people will change faster then a jack rabbit on a date. that's why, it's Homeland Security issue..
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Old 12-23-2013, 07:16 AM
 
31,471 posts, read 14,565,596 times
Reputation: 8350
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthGAbound12 View Post
Obviously this mess is very complex. However just legalizing all of the illegal immigrants that are here sets a bad precedent for the future. It shows that breaking the law can get you rewarded. It's just a flagrant disregard for the rule of law.

Also how is it far to the legal immigrants who did things the right way and went through with the process like they were supposed to? It probably cost them a lot of time and money to get the legal right to live and work here and then to just hand those rights over to illegals is unjust. How can we expect anyone to ever have any respect for the law ever again when they'll just think "I can just sneak across the border and lay low for awhile and eventually they'll give me legal status." Amnesty is just another step towards eliminating the borders and a nation without borders is no nation at all.
Excellent post! Thank you.
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Old 12-23-2013, 07:26 AM
 
Location: TX
6,009 posts, read 4,944,504 times
Reputation: 2585
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthGAbound12 View Post
Obviously this mess is very complex. However just legalizing all of the illegal immigrants that are here sets a bad precedent for the future. It shows that breaking the law can get you rewarded. It's just a flagrant disregard for the rule of law.

Also how is it far to the legal immigrants who did things the right way and went through with the process like they were supposed to? It probably cost them a lot of time and money to get the legal right to live and work here and then to just hand those rights over to illegals is unjust. How can we expect anyone to ever have any respect for the law ever again when they'll just think "I can just sneak across the border and lay low for awhile and eventually they'll give me legal status." Amnesty is just another step towards eliminating the borders and a nation without borders is no nation at all.
So those who came here illegally can be made to pay for it after gaining citizenship. It's more unfair now than it would be if amnesty was granted, because right now they're all in hiding and therefore not having to pay taxes of any kind, contribute in any big way to society, while those who came here legally are.

Further, you might think twice about getting the opinions of legal immigrants on this subject, because they'd probably take something closer to the following view. We should ask ourselves just why so many "prefer" sneaking in over coming in legally in the first place. I don't think it's to avoid paying taxes in the U.S., nor that they are all criminals. You were right to say it costs a lot of money and takes a long time to take the "path to citizenship" we have set up. And depending on exactly why they want to leave Mexico or countries further south in the first place, it may reasonably be considered a price they can't afford to pay.
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Old 12-23-2013, 11:33 AM
 
139 posts, read 170,795 times
Reputation: 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0 View Post
I'm sorry, I will just never believe that any significant fraction of unemployment is due to illegal immigration per se. I live in Texas, a state with an incredibly large portion of the estimated illegal immigrant population in the U.S. and also incredible job growth compared to most other states. Clearly, other factors play a vastly more important role.

Job growth in Texas is due to many factors. Cheaper labor, a less regulated environment, natural resources bring in a lot of employers from the northeast, north, and California. Undocumented immigrants are mostly in the low-skill service sector, thus not affecting medium-skill and high-skill employment much.

Again, you don't seem to get the big picture I have to say. It's not a matter of whether you believe it. The very goal is to lower labor cost, increase labor surplus, leading to more workers than jobs. This is the best way for businesses to deal with an entitled American workforce. Unionization? vacations? high minimum wage? And people wonder why they are not wanted by employers? No employer would put up with what they see as first-world entitlements.

Whether it's using immigrant labor here or offshoring jobs overseas, the plan is to create a global labor market instead of labor markets by nation. The free trade agreements are often designed so that businesses can use labor everywhere anywhere, now with the help of automation and the Web.

If you think it's not a problem, then don't complain when minimum wage doesn't go up. It's businesses that should cheer on immigration. But for some reason, a lot of Americans have been sold the idea that they should cheer too and then they aren't happy about not having a job (duh). It's like they are counting profit for the companies that sold them. How stupid can a population be?
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Old 12-23-2013, 12:07 PM
 
139 posts, read 170,795 times
Reputation: 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0 View Post
So those who came here illegally can be made to pay for it after gaining citizenship. It's more unfair now than it would be if amnesty was granted, because right now they're all in hiding and therefore not having to pay taxes of any kind, contribute in any big way to society, while those who came here legally are.

Further, you might think twice about getting the opinions of legal immigrants on this subject, because they'd probably take something closer to the following view. We should ask ourselves just why so many "prefer" sneaking in over coming in legally in the first place. I don't think it's to avoid paying taxes in the U.S., nor that they are all criminals. You were right to say it costs a lot of money and takes a long time to take the "path to citizenship" we have set up. And depending on exactly why they want to leave Mexico or countries further south in the first place, it may reasonably be considered a price they can't afford to pay.
Many low-skill people can't easily immigrate here legally. Except for family/marriage-based immigration and asylum, most immigration is done through employment (first, visa, and then immigration). Employment-based immigration demands skills. The higher level your skills are, the easier. Immigration laws are designed to benefit this economy (as defined by corporations), particularly to fill areas of labor shortage. Large corporations have incredible influence over immigration laws, with regard to which visa type, how many, etc., all depending on the corporations' needs at the moment and are subject to change.

Needless to say, there is no shortage of low-skill labor. It becomes difficult to go through legal channels. People then come in as undocumented. Businesses then go for the undocumented and take advantage of cheaper labor that way. Because wage is so low, Americans walk away from these jobs, creating what the media calls "labor shortage." Therefore, it becomes actually possible to increase visa numbers as corporations lobby the government to fill "labor shortage" and make America (read: American businesses) more competitive.

In other words, we don't have an immigration system that says "you can apply legally if you want to" for every situation. For the most part, our focus has been to solicit and recruit specifically for high-skill immigrants for our tech sector. It's for business reasons, not humanity reasons. The system has a lot of requirements such as skill level, school admission, marriage/family ties, etc. A random person cannot easily apply to come to the U.S. If you want to reduce undocumented immigration, you can create a general category for that random person. But then the challenge is that you would get hundreds of thousands of people who want to come here, either because life here is better (or perceived as better), or they can't find employment at home, or they want to live in a free country.

For businesses, that wouldn't necessarily be a bad idea. There would be so many workers. Imagine what businesses can do! Moreover, given how little money is left in the U.S. and how large the population would be, sustaining government programs becomes nearly impossible.

Last edited by manbylake; 12-23-2013 at 12:28 PM..
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Old 12-23-2013, 02:00 PM
 
Location: San Antonio Texas
11,435 posts, read 15,943,293 times
Reputation: 5224
Quote:
Originally Posted by claud605 View Post
Here...I'll end this once and for all.

They are here anyway.
There is no way to get rid of them.
If they are citizens, they will pay taxes.
If they are citizens, they will have to buy health care like everyone else.

They will ALSO qualify for every entitlement known to the United States: subsidized Obamacare, welfare checks, Medicare, Social Security, SSI, housing, student loans and grants, earned income tax credit if they work, etc. Need I say more?
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Old 12-23-2013, 02:25 PM
 
Location: Las Vegas
5,877 posts, read 4,022,754 times
Reputation: 4130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0 View Post
So those who came here illegally can be made to pay for it after gaining citizenship. It's more unfair now than it would be if amnesty was granted, because right now they're all in hiding and therefore not having to pay taxes of any kind, contribute in any big way to society, while those who came here legally are.
So deport as many people as you can find. Just because the law is being ignored now doesn't mean that further disregarding the law is a good idea. There will soon be no point to having any immigration law at all because we continually show a lack of will to enforce the laws. If we just starting amnestying people left and right it sends the message that you don't even have to consider following the rules, if you just come here and stay here long enough you will get the express lane to citizenship. Why even bother with borders?

Quote:
Further, you might think twice about getting the opinions of legal immigrants on this subject, because they'd probably take something closer to the following view. We should ask ourselves just why so many "prefer" sneaking in over coming in legally in the first place. I don't think it's to avoid paying taxes in the U.S., nor that they are all criminals. You were right to say it costs a lot of money and takes a long time to take the "path to citizenship" we have set up. And depending on exactly why they want to leave Mexico or countries further south in the first place, it may reasonably be considered a price they can't afford to pay.
Perhaps we could review our immigration laws and look for opportunities to streamline where we can. To me it doesn't matter how easy it is, if we continue to ignore our immigration laws people will find it easier to take the risk and come illegally. The problem is lack of enforcement not difficulty of legal entry.
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Old 12-23-2013, 02:55 PM
 
Location: TX
6,009 posts, read 4,944,504 times
Reputation: 2585
Quote:
Originally Posted by wehotex View Post
They will ALSO qualify for every entitlement known to the United States: subsidized Obamacare, welfare checks, Medicare, Social Security, SSI, housing, student loans and grants, earned income tax credit if they work, etc. Need I say more?
Plenty more needs to be said. But to simplify it, if you're saying all this would be a problem, then you're saying the system is broken and what the average American worker is putting in isn't enough to pay for what so many are taking out. That would be a much bigger problem, which the country cannot ignore, amnesty or no.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthGAbound12 View Post
The problem is lack of enforcement not difficulty of legal entry.
So you're saying that where the possibility of dying from asphyxiation or heatstroke (not to speak of the ordeal of sneaking in itself) has failed to serve as the deterrent, more consistent deportation and/or jail time will succeed?
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Old 12-23-2013, 03:05 PM
 
Location: bold new city of the south
5,200 posts, read 4,107,506 times
Reputation: 6156
Default 60% of Americans support allowing illegal immigrants to become citizens.

I don't buy it. Polls are inherently misleading. Only 1004 people used,
to represent the views of 330,000,000. Really? That's 328,685+ for
every one vote. Polls are a crap shoot, they mean nothing.
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Old 12-23-2013, 04:56 PM
 
20,611 posts, read 12,282,218 times
Reputation: 5895
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0 View Post
Plenty more needs to be said. But to simplify it, if you're saying all this would be a problem, then you're saying the system is broken and what the average American worker is putting in isn't enough to pay for what so many are taking out. That would be a much bigger problem, which the country cannot ignore, amnesty or no.



So you're saying that where the possibility of dying from asphyxiation or heatstroke (not to speak of the ordeal of sneaking in itself) has failed to serve as the deterrent, more consistent deportation and/or jail time will succeed?
Don't TRY to cross the border illegally then. Sheesh!

It needs to be HARDER to get across illegally.
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