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Old 11-11-2007, 11:36 PM
 
1,510 posts, read 708,886 times
Reputation: 32

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Quote:
Originally Posted by SimpleMan View Post
My grandparents came here in the 20's, and were on a waiting list for 8 years. As far as I know, the process to this day is pretty similar. Do you think possibly it's done this way for a reason? Possibly to make sure people are dedicated and TRULY want to be a part of our country? I'm sorry, but I don't want people to be able to just come right in. Show our country that you want it bad enough to go through the process, because you know the end result will be a better life for your children and grandchildren. That's what millions of LEGAL citizens have done for two centuries, I don't see a need to change it now.
i dont know what the purpose of the wait time is, nor do i think making people wait will be proof of any amount of loyalty or appreciation. i cant make assumptions, neither should you. if you have proof that there is a specific reason for the wait times, and a proven effect on filtering "unappreciative" immigrants, i'd love to see it. until then, it's just you making a guess.

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Taking out the incentives to cross illegally is taking away the benefits our government gives them once they are here.
until the peso is worth a dollar, they will always have incentives to come here. until mexico's houses all have indoor plumbing, hot water, electricity, etc., they will have incentives to come here. a little sacrifice by us, and they all line up to do it legit. if we are too stubborn to make that little sacrifice and just reform our legal immigration process, then our stubbornness will be rewarded with a continual "illegal" presence, and the subculture that exists because they are exiled.

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I do NOT feel those who just want to work here but otherwise have no pride in our country have any right whatsoever to be here.
MOD CUT how exactly do you gauge pride? what is the cutoff for acceptable amount of pride?

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Did you ever think that many illegals do not WANT to become citizens? Their first loyalty is to Mexico, not to the US. Many of them despise America and her people, and THOSE people need to go back to Mexico.
im sure that some of them dont want to be american citizens. doesnt change anything. but i doubt people despise the country that provides them with the opportunity to make a better living.. but im sure they despise the people that subjugate them and pass judgment because of their culture or skin color. and we have plenty of those.

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My wife works with many illegals, and many of her workers have told her this, and say many illegals feel that way. Straight from the source.
i have no way of knowing that this isnt completely phony. i refuse to believe it.

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If they want to be an AMERICAN that bad, they will sacrifce and go through the process. This is suppose to be the land of the free, not the land of the free ride.
what sacrifice did you make to be an american? you got the free ride by being born here, and now you want everyone else to jump through hoops? most illegals, if born in the united states, would be conducting the same lifestyles as most of us: working, paying off a house, and trying to find some love. you fail to recognize.MOD CUT.

Last edited by NewToCA; 11-12-2007 at 08:40 PM.. Reason: rude comment

 
Old 11-11-2007, 11:38 PM
 
1,510 posts, read 708,886 times
Reputation: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
Using Italians as an example: when the borders were closed in 1920; many immigrant Italians returned back home because they either were unhappy or simply could not make it here in the USA.

That left those who were motivated to assimilate and become 'American'.

Ever notice how few Italian surnamed people can speak; let alone read and write that language? That was because the immigrant parents wanted their children to be American
they wouldve been just as american regardless of the language they spoke. instead, now they speak england's language instead of italy's. wow...
 
Old 11-11-2007, 11:43 PM
 
1,510 posts, read 708,886 times
Reputation: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by vivski View Post
cinco de mayo 1996, my husband was severly injured and almost killed by an illegal from mexico, my husband was riding his motorcycle home from a late night softball game, which they won, his friends tried to talk him into staying afterward to have a celebratory drink or two ...but since it was late he said no, he had to get home, on his way a car turned left in front of him and hit him head on.
witnesses stopped to render aid. they called me and that is where my experience started.
you seem to imply that because my husband was injured that his experience with the illegal alien drunk driver cannot possibly be my experience.
you have no clue.
my experience began with the knowlegdge my husband almost died, then it continued with the fact that the man who'd injured him was proven to be an illegal,he was released before his identity was established.
after his release, autorities found out he also had a warrant in california for brandishing a loaded firearm in a barfight.
he ran from justice for nine years,after his release, and after he was finally caught , heands erved a sentence which amounted to a slap on th ewrist, and not the deportation we were promised, he was again arrested in california two weeks after he got off probation on the charges brought against him in my husbands case.
you try to minimize the horror.of my experience..try to make it sound like it is nothing...
but i tell you this......you have no clue.
this experience we have had with this illegal is not just my husbands experience, it is our whole families experience.......
i am insulted that you dont understand, that when you love someone their pain automatically becomes your pain...their experience does become yours....and given the chance to have it happen again, i wish god would give it to me, instead of to my husband, becaus ei am broken hearted seeing him live with the pain.
and one more thing, my husband was out of work for many months, it too k him four months to be able to walk without his walker, and six years before his doctor gave him a doctors release that said he was only 60 % back to "normal"
eleven years later, six surgeries to attempt to hcorrect his injueries, a finacial lss of over one hundred thousand dollars, a bankruptcy, a foreclosure of our home, and.................it is still going on........what do you consider "my " experience????????this is my experience...sorry you are so blind or deaf you cannot understand.
this could all be a lie. even if its not, its a rare occurrence. if you want to use this story to condemn every single illegal immigrant, go ahead. it just doesnt make sense. what if he was legal? would that really have changed anything? crime and suffering are unfortunate, but theyre part of life. we dont punish a whole populace based on the acts of a few, especially because we would have to tie the nature of the crime to the populace represented. if someone is murdered by a poor white guy, who do we condemn? whites? males? the poor? people within a geographical radius of his place of living? a geographical radius of the place where the crime was committed? ONE CRIME, ONE CRIMINAL.
 
Old 11-12-2007, 12:05 AM
 
Location: Helena, Montana
2,010 posts, read 2,041,880 times
Reputation: 780
Quote:
Originally Posted by GH0ST.. View Post
i dont know what the purpose of the wait time is, nor do i think making people wait will be proof of any amount of loyalty or appreciation. i cant make assumptions, neither should you. if you have proof that there is a specific reason for the wait times, and a proven effect on filtering "unappreciative" immigrants, i'd love to see it. until then, it's just you making a guess.
Just as you saying the current immigration process is "unfair" is purely your OPINION, not a fact. It does not convince me or anyone else here that because you think the process is unfair that all of us should be understanding to illegals not following it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GHOST
im sure that some of them dont want to be american citizens. doesnt change anything. but i doubt people despise the country that provides them with the opportunity to make a better living..
Changes everything. If they don't want to be Americans, they shouldn't be here. And some of them indeed hate this country because they believe it was stolen from Mexico. I can't stand that way of thinking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GHOST
i have no way of knowing that this isnt completely phony. i refuse to believe it.
Refuse to believe it all you want. I know it as a FACT, you can continue to base you position off speculation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GHOST
what sacrifice did you make to be an american? you got the free ride by being born here, and now you want everyone else to jump through hoops?
What did I do? Nothing. What did both of my Grandparents do? Paid their fees, took their classes, learned English and sat on a waiting list in Norway for 8 years. They made that sacrifice for me, my Dad, my Aunts, Uncles, Cousins, etc. If those illegal in the country today did the same thing, their SONS, DAUGHTERS, AND GRANDCHILDREN would receive the SAME THING!!! NOBODY ELSE GOT A FREE RIDE!! EVERYONE ELSE HAD TO DO IT!!!!!!!
 
Old 11-12-2007, 12:09 AM
 
1,510 posts, read 708,886 times
Reputation: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by SimpleMan View Post
Anyone with a heart understands where your coming from. The agrument people present that "Americans commit crime too" or "Not all illegals are criminals" is totally irrelevant to the point everyone is trying to make: If there were no illegals, and everyone was screened before entry, the crime illegals commit would have NEVER HAPPENED.
if there were no illegals, there wouldnt be any crimes attributed to people with an illegal immigrant status. if the people were all here legally, that doesnt necessarily imply that there would be any less crime. crime happens.

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Thousands of people are killed, raped, assaulted, identities stolen, car stolen, etc., UNNECESSARILY.
well, yeah. when is it necessary?

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And while we can not prevent crime commited by our own people, THE CRIMES COMMITTED BY ILLEGALS CAN EASILY BE PREVENTED IF THEY'RE NOT HERE TO COMMIT THEM.
and illegals who will never commit violent crimes will be punished. and they are the majority. so not only will we be punishing the wrong people, but we will be punishing MORE wrong people than right. its totally irrational.

again, do we stop driving to prevent car accident deaths? NO! we accept them, because most people driving are not going to die doing it.. ever. same logic.

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These "insignificant" numbers are anything but insignificant to the victims and families.
well no duh. if someone dies in a car accident, their family wont care about the numbers, either. thats common sense, but doesnt change anything.

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And if one, JUST ONE person is not killed by the hands of someone who never should have been here, then THAT MAKES IT WORTH IT to strictly enforce border security and deport anyone not willing to earn citizenship.
again, illogical. we can prevent drunk driving by banning alcohol and enforcing it, or by banning automobiles, and enforcing that. but we dont punish a whole group of people to save a few. we deal with the problem, and try our best to target only the guilty individuals. it is the SAME LOGIC. dont you get it?

Quote:
One person with a violent crime commited against them by an illegal is ONE PERSON TOO MANY. If anyone is more intested in the well being of illegal immigrants than the thousands of Americans each year killed by them, then my friend, a "humanitarian" you are NOT.
killed by "them"? the "them" that are killing people are murderers, not illegal immigrants. if "them" were illegal immigrants, then they would ALL be murderers. you are making an illogical attribution to the criminals.

as a humanitarian, i not only wish people werent murdered, but i ALSO wish that opportunistic people werent punished as a whole based on the actions of a few. i wouldnt wish you punished if someone with a similar characteristic to you was the one that committed the crime. the murders are undoubtedly unfortunate, but that does not give immunity to the social reaction. that can still be botched, making two negatives out of a bad situation. if we pursued that criminal like we do with every other criminal, then we would be positively reacting to a negative. that is why we have such due process currently. sensational reaction makes us all look ignorant.
 
Old 11-12-2007, 12:16 AM
 
1,510 posts, read 708,886 times
Reputation: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by texanborn View Post
Let me try one more time, NO ONE gave me anything.....I worked it and being born in the United States had nothing to do with it.
being born here had nothing to do with it? either you are oblivious or unappreciative. the opportunities, the economy, the general standard of living, all of it fell in your lap because you were born in these borders. if you were born in mexico, all your hard work would be earning you less money, and a crappier house to show for it, probably with no hot water, electricity, or plumbing. for the same amount of work... now tell me again how being born in america didnt give you anything...

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And what social programs do you think I have used even tho I have paid taxes for them? And the United States is Spelled with a cap. U and cap. S., just like America and American is.

doesnt matter if you havent used them... you might in the future... you planning on collecting social security? if you lose your job, are you not going to collect unemployment? if you lose all your money, are you not going to file for bankruptcy and possibly collect welfare? maybe move into section 8 housing to get yourself reestablished? would you have your kid turn away a state-granted scholarship for school? hell, are you going to send them to free public school? ever used the post office? ever had to call 911? would you, if you were faced with an emergency?
 
Old 11-12-2007, 12:22 AM
 
1,510 posts, read 708,886 times
Reputation: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman01 View Post
Well said Texan...
Ghost seems to over look the fact you and your parents and theirs have worked, paid taxes, maybe even served in our military during time of war. Maybe they have done other noble things to further our way of life. This is why you have earned your right to expect immigrants regardless of their burden to enter our country through legal means.
you make it seem that if we made our immigration process free and quick, people wouldnt come over and just work and pay taxes. this is a pure assumption, with no real data to back it up at all. common sense tells us that most people would come over and do it legit, especially since the majority of legal immigrants are doing just that currently.

Quote:
Ghost, I have served my country in time of war, as did my father and 4 uncles, as did both of my grandafthers, and 3 grand uncles, as did both of my great grandfathers. What more price need to be paid? Some of us in my clan were injured while serving.. Now what great sacrifice have the illegals made that grants them the same rights and priveleges as an american citizen?
you cant blame illegal immigrants because they havent served in the military. most citizens havent served in the military. are those citizens unworthy of rights and privileges?

Quote:
They come here and commit fraud, and tax evasion, they come here and commit idendity theft often ruining lives of honest citizens. They come here and low ball the price of labor.
"they" dont. some do. not all. dont generalize. it takes away your credibility.

Quote:
Cheating honest contractors out of work, because they have to pay taxes, have insurance, and most important of all guarentee their work.
i dont blame the illegals. they wouldnt be able to do what they do if the dishonest contractors didnt enable them by hiring them. go after the dealer, not the user.

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I am all for work visa's as long as they pay their fair share in taxes, and have to be above board as the competition. No I don't hate illegals. I just hate what they do to honest americans as well as honest immigrants.

a lot of dishonest americans are doing the honest americans wrong. the demand for illegal labor wouldnt exist if no one was hiring them. again, go after the dealer, not the user.
 
Old 11-12-2007, 12:34 AM
 
1,510 posts, read 708,886 times
Reputation: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by SimpleMan View Post
Just as you saying the current immigration process is "unfair" is purely your OPINION, not a fact. It does not convince me or anyone else here that because you think the process is unfair that all of us should be understanding to illegals not following it.
its true, it is my opinion that the immigration process is unfair. but tell me that this isnt true: if we made the process quick and free, and screened for health issues (and treated the ones we could), the incentive for honest people to cross illegally would be completely eliminated. right?

the only people you would have crossing illegally would be the terminally ill and criminals. those people could be rounded up. no one has problems with that.

Quote:
Changes everything. If they don't want to be Americans, they shouldn't be here. And some of them indeed hate this country because they believe it was stolen from Mexico. I can't stand that way of thinking.
people can be in the country on work visas without wanting to "be american". there is no requirement to assimilate to an undefined, multicultural, always-evolving "american" culture. what would they have to do? wave flags and eat hot dogs?

define american culture for me, if you will. it could help clear up quite a bit.

Quote:
Refuse to believe it all you want. I know it as a FACT, you can continue to base you position off speculation.
the sky is red. refuse to believe it all you want. i know it as a FACT, you can continue to base your position off speculation.

wasnt that easy for me to say? does it make it true? well ok then. ive made my point.

Quote:
What did I do? Nothing.
so who are you to be demanding that other people do something? if anything, the people that actually PAID DUES to be here should be the ones griping. not some lucky little man like you.

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What did both of my Grandparents do? Paid their fees, took their classes, learned English and sat on a waiting list in Norway for 8 years. They made that sacrifice for me, my Dad, my Aunts, Uncles, Cousins, etc. If those illegal in the country today did the same thing, their SONS, DAUGHTERS, AND GRANDCHILDREN would receive the SAME THING!!! NOBODY ELSE GOT A FREE RIDE!! EVERYONE ELSE HAD TO DO IT!!!!!!!
and what if your grandparents couldnt afford the fees? would that reflect on their character? i was under the impression that character was defined by how you carried yourself, not how much money is in your pocket. i didnt realize america preferred the financially affluent over good people with strong character. u$a?

and its funny they learned english to come to america. i mean, good for them for being multi-lingual. but i have to laugh at the fact that to be "american" you have to speak a language from england...
 
Old 11-12-2007, 12:57 AM
 
Location: Helena, Montana
2,010 posts, read 2,041,880 times
Reputation: 780
Quote:
Originally Posted by GH0ST.. View Post
there is no requirement to assimilate to an undefined, multicultural, always-evolving "american" culture. what would they have to do? wave flags and eat hot dogs?

define american culture for me, if you will. it could help clear up quite a bit.
I have tried in the past to define Amercian culture, and people like you will always disagree, so I will save my breath. But indeed what is NOT American culture is burning our flag or thousands bearing the MEXICAN FLAG in a demonstration. Those people, DO NOT WANT TO BE AMERICANS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GHOST
the sky is red. refuse to believe it all you want. i know it as a FACT, you can continue to base your position off speculation.

wasnt that easy for me to say? does it make it true? well ok then. ive made my point.
Wow, that was immature, even for you. My point was I KNOW it's true, and I really don't care what you believe.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GHOST
so who are you to be demanding that other people do something? if anything, the people that actually PAID DUES to be here should be the ones griping. not some lucky little man like you.
Who am I?I AM AN AMERICAN!! Be it by birth, by my Grandparents sacrifice, I am an American. I've worked since I was 16, paid taxes, medical insurance, car insurance, etc. I HAVE PAID MY DUES BY BEING A PRODUCTIVE, LAW ABIDING CITIZEN, DUES AN ILLEGAL HAS NOT PAID!! What dues have they paid? Ignoring our laws? Not paying taxes? GET REAL. And watch your condescending tone, this 6'1, 235 pound "little man" does NOT like it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GHOST
and what if your grandparents couldnt afford the fees?
Then today I'd be living in Norway, not listening to your nonsense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GHOST
and its funny they learned english to come to america. i mean, good for them for being multi-lingual. but i have to laugh at the fact that to be "american" you have to speak a language from england...
When you move to a country where a majority of that country speaks a certain language, you learn it. Common sense. No that much to ask, at least to anyone with the slightest amount of common sense.
 
Old 11-12-2007, 01:21 AM
 
1,510 posts, read 708,886 times
Reputation: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by SimpleMan View Post
I have tried in the past to define Amercian culture, and people like you will always disagree, so I will save my breath. But indeed what is NOT American culture is burning our flag or thousands bearing the MEXICAN FLAG in a demonstration. Those people, DO NOT WANT TO BE AMERICANS.
so you dont have any documented definition of american culture? are we supposed to believe that YOU are the one that rightfully determines what defines american culture? i dont think so. find me a defintion... something from an encyclopedia or another proper source.

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Wow, that was immature, even for you. My point was I KNOW it's true, and I really don't care what you believe.
regardless of your opinion of me, it still holds true that only a fool will unquestionably believe an unverified claim.

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Who am I?I AM AN AMERICAN!! Be it by birth, by my Grandparents sacrifice, I am an American.
you are not your grandparents. you are lucky. so am i. at least i realize it.

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I've worked since I was 16, paid taxes, medical insurance, car insurance, etc. I HAVE PAID MY DUES BY BEING A PRODUCTIVE, LAW ABIDING CITIZEN, DUES AN ILLEGAL HAS NOT PAID!! What dues have they paid? Ignoring our laws? Not paying taxes? GET REAL. And watch your condescending tone, this 6'1, 235 pound "little man" does NOT like it.
are you telling me youve never broken a law, ever? even if that was true, you would be in the vast minority of american citizens. most of us have sped on the freeway, or had a drink underage, or shoplifted, or whatever. if the only crime committed by an illegal is crossing the border illegally, and they work and pay taxes (and yeah, a lot of them pay money into government that theyll never see), then what makes them any different than you or i? just where they were born, and the specific crime committed. not much different, really. youre just in a more fortunate position, and you use that LUCK to justify your arrogance.

oh, and congratulations on the height and weight. im quivering. are you going to e-kick my *****? oh no!!

Quote:
Then today I'd be living in Norway, not listening to your nonsense.
and youd be in no position to be complaining about illegal american immigrants. so i guess your complaints only exist because someone in your bloodline could afford them. pretty weak...

Quote:
When you move to a country where a majority of that country speaks a certain language, you learn it. Common sense. No that much to ask, at least to anyone with the slightest amount of common sense.

if you can get by without learning the language, why would you go out and learn it? at that point, it's a personal desire, not a necessity...
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