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if the immigration process was free and quick, there would be no incentive to cross illegally, and subsequently, less employer demand for "illegals". and they would all be able to fairly contribute to social security and taxes through proper employment registration. just like the rest of us.
As far as I've heard, Mexicans pay up to $5000 to be brought into this country illegally. Take that money and apply it towards becoming a citizen. Until they earn citizenship, they have no RIGHT to be here. They are an insult to those who have followed our immigration process. And employers do not DAMAND illegals, they hire them out of greed to increase profits. America will survive without illegals.
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Originally Posted by ghost
many are NOT receiving benefits...
Then where might I ask did California's 10.5 billion dollars for illegals go? I'm pretty sure it was welfare and medical care.
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Originally Posted by GHOST
i support that idea.. but these businesses do not all have this extra money. the ones that will suffer are the small businesses.. and those are the ones we want to thrive, assuming we're somewhat anti-corporate.
Small businesses do not hire illegals nearly as much as big businesses. Any business who knowingly hired illegals deserves whatever they get.
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Originally Posted by GHOST
america's unemployment rate has remained fairly stagnant. the only ones without jobs are the ones that dont want to work, or are too picky about what they want to do for work.
I wouldn't go as far as to say all. Yes there are some who want to sit on their butt and collect a welfare check, and I'm strongly against that as well, but that's an entirely different issue.
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Originally Posted by GHOST
we already have crime and disease. we are not destroyed. the solution is to offer health screening with our free, quick immigration process, in addition to a background check. internally, healthcare should be both socialized and privatized. that way we all have options, and the sick illegals (and legals) can receive treatment to prevent the spread of the disease. those who arent able to pass a background check will be denied entry. they might seek to cross illegally, but it will be easier to enforce border security if that is the case.
Not yet. A much higher percentage of the poor Mexican population, which is a majority of what's coming here, has criminals and disease than Americans. Why add to an existing problem? Why not take the money used to support illegals and use it to fight crime and disease in our own country?
I will agree that anyone with a criminal backround should never be allowed into the US, and that's the problem we have. We have no idea what kind of people are coming in with a criminal backround or disease. We can not have millions of unscreened people coming into our country. We can not grant ANYONE amnesty without making sure they're not criminals, they don't have a highly spreadable disease, and that they HAVE A JOB, we don't need illegals collecting welfare. We must enforce border security so we know EXACTLY who is coming into our country.
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Originally Posted by GHOST
not the only ones. but definitely the primary target.
And why exactly are they special?
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Originally Posted by Ghost
the zapatistas are a prominent alliance, yet they have failed to enact change. what makes you think a common citizen would be able to do more? not to mention the threat of violence against them... it is not realistic to expect common citizens to put themselves in such a situation.
Strength in numbers. Voters. The same priciple as middle class America fighting against illegal immigration, because we don't want our country ruined.
get over it........time for every other countrys government to cowboy up for their own........
easier said than done.
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you have no idea what type of charity i give...
i know what kind of charity you deny.
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have no idea where i come from, how rich i am...or any of the above.....
id be willing to bet youre better off than the average illegal alien, especially before they come to america.
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stop judging me, and open your eyes.........
stop judging illegals, and open your eyes.
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illegal is illegal....you can pass the blame to me, if you like, but the true culprits are the governments of the countries people in the millions are fleeing from....
right!!! the governments, not the people. the government isnt coming into america. who do you think the anti-illegal viewpoint affects? the governments or the people?
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if they took care of their people, were humanitarians there would be no illegal immigration to america......
but they dont. if we used diplomacy to influence such a change, we would be doing something to stop illegal immigration. in the meantime, we shouldnt punish the common man.
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i am fortunate to be an american, and anyone who would immigrate legally would have my welcome..do it illegally, and they will not.
why should they have to pay a price to be here? most citizens didnt. they were just born here. it is our unfair immigration practices that offer incentives to cross illegally. we created this monster.
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and this isnt kindergarten this is real life...grown up things., why dont you read my threads, to see why i feel the way i do before you sit in judgement?
what are you saying? grown ups shouldnt share? i guess i never got that memo. i guess we should get rid of welfare, scholarships, clinics, and social security...
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i'm tired of people like you thinking you are holier than thou...you talk about compassion for the illegal..what about compassion for the victims of violent crimes committed by your precious illegals?
not all illegals are criminals. crime victims have my compassion, regardless if the criminal is illegal, legal, or a citizen.
As far as I've heard, Mexicans pay up to $5000 to be brought into this country illegally. Take that money and apply it towards becoming a citizen. Until they earn citizenship, they have no RIGHT to be here. They are an insult to those who have followed our immigration process. And employers do not DAMAND illegals, they hire them out of greed to increase profits. America will survive without illegals.
some do. and that is an investment on INSTANT immigration. again, if our immigration process was QUICK, this would not give them the "coyote" incentive.
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Then where might I ask did California's 10.5 billion dollars for illegals go? I'm pretty sure it was welfare and medical care.
as opposed to having homeless and sick people roaming around? money well spent, in my opinion. if we offer them education, they would have the potential to shift from welfare recipients to welfare contributors in massive numbers.
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Small businesses do not hire illegals nearly as much as big businesses. Any business who knowingly hired illegals deserves whatever they get.
ok. but big businesses are less likely to fold than small businesses when you take a chunk of employee base and mandate an increase in pay.
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I wouldn't go as far as to say all. Yes there are some who want to sit on their butt and collect a welfare check, and I'm strongly against that as well, but that's an entirely different issue.
so you concede that illegals are not stealing jobs?
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Not yet. A much higher percentage of the poor Mexican population, which is a majority of what's coming here, has criminals and disease than Americans. Why add to an existing problem? Why not take the money used to support illegals and use it to fight crime and disease in our own country?
we already have the money to fight crime and disease. why not take it from the defense budget (and close foreign military bases to cover losses), so you dont have to punish mexican immigrants?
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I will agree that anyone with a criminal backround should never be allowed into the US, and that's the problem we have. We have no idea what kind of people are coming in with a criminal backround or disease. We can not have millions of unscreened people coming into our country. We can not grant ANYONE amnesty without making sure they're not criminals, they don't have a highly spreadable disease, and that they HAVE A JOB, we don't need illegals collecting welfare. We must enforce border security so we know EXACTLY who is coming into our country.
the real solution is to take away the incentive to cross illegally. what is wrong with my proposed plan? a free, quick immigration process with health and criminal screenings? you wouldnt even need to deny someone who is sick.. you would just treat them in a border hospital before they were allowed full entry. who would have incentives to cross illegally at that point? just criminals. if we used all the military from the closed military bases on the border, we would be more than able to catch the few remaining fence-hoppers.
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And why exactly are they special?
because they are our geographic neighbors, and their population is the one coming to us in great numbers.
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Strength in numbers. Voters. The same priciple as middle class America fighting against illegal immigration, because we don't want our country ruined.
so i should just get over the crime committed by an illegal on my husband?????not so easy either.
i know what kind of charity you deny.
you have no idea at all....judgement again.
hope you are ready to face your maker.
id be willing to bet youre better off than the average illegal alien, especially before they come to america.
i earned what i have...i didnt steal it , and i didnt cross a border illegally to attain it.
stop judging illegals, and open your eyes.
i dont judge the illegals for wanting more... i judge the fact they came here illegally.big difference
right!!! the governments, not the people. the government isnt coming into america. who do you think the anti-illegal viewpoint affects? the governments or the people?
i dont care.
but they dont. if we used diplomacy to influence such a change, we would be doing something to stop illegal immigration. in the meantime, we shouldnt punish the common man.
diplomacy.....................hmmmmmmmmmmm diplomacy with an invading army...what a concept.
why should they have to pay a price to be here? most citizens didnt. they were just born here. it is our unfair immigration practices that offer incentives to cross illegally. we created this monster.
yes...my family immigrated in 1639.........after that immigration there have been many generations born here...i should be ashamed of my self?????ok.note to self....i am i horrible human being for being born american..everyone should be so lucky.
what are you saying? grown ups shouldnt share? i guess i never got that memo. i guess we should get rid of welfare, scholarships, clinics, and social security...
ridiculous....these things should be for americans no matter what their race, or gender...but for illegals? never.
not all illegals are criminals. crime victims have my compassion, regardless if the criminal is illegal, legal, or a citizen.
read my thread...drunk driver was illegal immigrant, and then come talk to me...i dare you to sit in judgement of my character...you have little clue.
as opposed to having homeless and sick people roaming around? money well spent, in my opinion. if we offer them education, they would have the potential to shift from welfare recipients to welfare contributors in massive numbers.
Money wasted, in my opinion.
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Originally Posted by GHOST
ok. but big businesses are less likely to fold than small businesses when you take a chunk of employee base and mandate an increase in pay.
I don't really care. They should have obeyed the law.
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Originally Posted by GHOST
so you concede that illegals are not stealing jobs?
Not only is that a no, that's a hell no. I have personal friends and have heard several stories of losing construction jobs to illegals. Surprise, surprise, jobs Americans want. Not to mention Americans aren't taking billions of dollars a year out of the American economy and putting it into the Mexican economy, like the illegals who send their money "home".
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Originally Posted by GHOST
the real solution is to take away the incentive to cross illegally. what is wrong with my proposed plan? a free, quick immigration process with health and criminal screenings? you wouldnt even need to deny someone who is sick.. you would just treat them in a border hospital before they were allowed full entry. who would have incentives to cross illegally at that point? just criminals. if we used all the military from the closed military bases on the border, we would be more than able to catch the few remaining fence-hoppers.
That's fine, as long as the amount allowed is rational. And what of the 12-20 million here already? What of the anchor baby law?
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Originally Posted by GHOST
because they are our geographic neighbors, and their population is the one coming to us in great numbers.
We can't help everyone. Everyone on the planet can not live in the US. There's a point where a country needs to take care of their own, it's not our responsibility to take care of them. If we keep helping them, they will never learn to help themselves.
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Originally Posted by GHOST
mexico's elections are notoriously corrupt. now what is your solution?
Stay and fight. If you talk to a gentleman on here named Travellinfella, he is a Mexican citizen living in Mexico who agrees they should stay and fight for change.
i guess you dont mind an increase in the amount of sick and homeless. thats a weird thing to want.
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I don't really care. They should have obeyed the law.
we need to do more about our dollar value before we just demand small businesses to all pay these american wages. otherwise, we're encouraging corporatism to a high degree. do you know that a synonym for corporatism is fascism?
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Not only is that a no, that's a hell no. I have personal friends and have heard several stories of losing construction jobs to illegals. Surprise, surprise, jobs Americans want.
unskilled jobs americans expect high labor wages for. notice there arent many illegals working electrician jobs. thats because of the skill involved in that trade. big difference from drywalling. if americans are complaining about the bottom dropping out, they better not be hanging around the bottom.
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Not to mention Americans aren't taking billions of dollars a year out of the American economy and putting it into the Mexican economy, like the illegals who send their money "home".
america has enjoyed economic prosperity at the expense of other countries through trade agreements. not only that, but american companies and policies have encouraged the dissolution of the middle class (via wealth redistribution) internally. its not exactly like the american government is 100% innocent in economic matters.
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That's fine, as long as the amount allowed is rational. And what of the 12-20 million here already?
we can obviously accommodate them. we are 146th in population density. we can obviously accommodate many more.
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What of the anchor baby law?
illegal is illegal??... then legal is legal.
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We can't help everyone. Everyone on the planet can not live in the US.
we can help mexico. and we can accommodate a massive influx of their populace, obviously. fixing mexico's government and balancing our economies would give many immigrants incentive to go back to the motherland also.
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There's a point where a country needs to take care of their own, it's not our responsibility to take care of them. If we keep helping them, they will never learn to help themselves.
we help the people and help repair the country simultaneously. should be no problem for the "most powerful nation on earth".
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Stay and fight. If you talk to a gentleman on here named Travellinfella, he is a Mexican citizen living in Mexico who agrees they should stay and fight for change.
they can not do it without our help. we need to make some sacrifices for the optimal result.
i would like to know someones personal experience with an illegal. not their husbands, sisters, friends of a friends really your personal experience with an illegal. People say that they are horrible killers, drunks, murders, and rapists. I havent met one yet im not saying they are not out there but really i want to hear some personal experience face to face with an illegal. What did you honestly think? And what if you had come in contact with an illegal and you didnt even know it??
i guess you dont mind an increase in the amount of sick and homeless. thats a weird thing to want.
If they weren't catered to, they would go home to be sick and homeless.
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Originally Posted by GHOST
we need to do more about our dollar value before we just demand small businesses to all pay these american wages.
We SHOULD pay American wages, we are in AMERICA.
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Originally Posted by GHOST
unskilled jobs americans expect high labor wages for. notice there arent many illegals working electrician jobs. thats because of the skill involved in that trade. big difference from drywalling. if americans are complaining about the bottom dropping out, they better not be hanging around the bottom.
These "unskilled" jobs have supported American families for generations. Most don't have the time, money nor the means to learn another trade or go back to school. Most like their jobs, and don't want to do something else, and they shouldn't have to. It was THEIR JOB. It was stolen by people who are breaking the laws to be here and work for unlivable wages for an American. Like I said, THE AMERICAN PEOPLE COME FIRST.
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Originally Posted by GHOST
america has enjoyed economic prosperity at the expense of other countries through trade agreements. not only that, but american companies and policies have encouraged the dissolution of the middle class (via wealth redistribution) internally. its not exactly like the american government is 100% innocent in economic matters.
That's why "We the people" are fighting this.
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Originally Posted by GHOST
we can obviously accommodate them. we are 146th in population density. we can obviously accommodate many more.
I personally have no desire to be #1 on that list, and if the current situation continues that isn't too far in the future.
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Originally Posted by GHOST
illegal is illegal??... then legal is legal.
How convenient. Follow the laws that benefit you, ignore the ones that don't. Intelligent.
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Originally Posted by GHOST
we can help mexico. and we can accommodate a massive influx of their populace, obviously. fixing mexico's government and balancing our economies would give many immigrants incentive to go back to the motherland also.
At what cost to the American people? Do you not care about them? We can help Mexico WITHOUT taking in millions of their population.
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Originally Posted by GHOST
they can not do it without our help. we need to make some sacrifices for the optimal result.
Once they all go home, I will support government efforts to repair their country.
It's obvious we will never agree, this can go back and forth forever with views from both sides. Fortunately, America is still a Democracy, where the majority rules. The middle class is the majority on this country, and they are the ones this issue affects the most, and we are tired of illegal immigration. Follow the law or get the hell out. Love it or leave it. Come election day our voices will be heard loud and clear.
If they weren't catered to, they would go home to be sick and homeless.
this is purely theoretical. what incentive would they have for going home?
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We SHOULD pay American wages, we are in AMERICA.
what should we pay them? minimum wage? what exactly is an "american" wage? my argument is that the dollar value needs to be restructured before we force small business owners to pay wages that are going to leave their businesses in the red (such as farmers). basic survival: prioritizing threats.
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These "unskilled" jobs have supported American families for generations.
times change. a single breadwinner income cant buy you a house or raise you a family anymore. that has way more to do with inflation than immigration. even if we deported every single illegal, these jobs wouldnt be any more able to support a family.
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Most don't have the time, money nor the means to learn another trade or go back to school.
that is their own fault. education and skill land you jobs with security.
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Most like their jobs, and don't want to do something else, and they shouldn't have to. It was THEIR JOB.
what about layoffs and downsizing? the people probably liked their job and dont want to do something else. TOO BAD! thats part of AMERICA! that is why we have unemployment insurance.
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It was stolen by people who are breaking the laws to be here and work for unlivable wages for an American. Like I said, THE AMERICAN PEOPLE COME FIRST.
it was given to them by the EMPLOYER that wants to cut their overhead. tell that AMERICAN PERSON that the AMERICAN PEOPLE COME FIRST. cant have cheap labor if no one pays for it.
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That's why "We the people" are fighting this.
fighting what exactly?
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I personally have no desire to be #1 on that list, and if the current situation continues that isn't too far in the future.
what do you base that claim off of? our population could increase 10x over and we wouldnt even crack the top 25...
[quote[How convenient. Follow the laws that benefit you, ignore the ones that don't. Intelligent.[/quote]
im not breaking any immigration laws. i believe in questioning unfair laws. the reason i say "legal is legal" is because that logically follows people who say "illegal is illegal". they all seem to be unquestioning followers of the law, until the anchor baby argument is brought up. if you have a right to question the validity of that law, we also have the right to question our immigration laws and policies, without being told "illegal is illegal".
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At what cost to the American people? Do you not care about them? We can help Mexico WITHOUT taking in millions of their population.
the american people would probably see a slight decrease in their quality of life.. but we have an extreme amount of luxury. it would be a very small sacrifice in order to reestablish both countries. the end result would justify the means, without question. we are not "taking in" people. they are here, and they are coming. it's our choice whether to create division or unity. united we stand, divided we fall.
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Once they all go home, I will support government efforts to repair their country.
well that isnt going to happen. so you can continue to deal with illegal immigrants, continue to hate, and know that no real solution is going to happen, because of hatred and stubbornness, and an inability to grasp real world scenario and solution.
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It's obvious we will never agree, this can go back and forth forever with views from both sides. Fortunately, America is still a Democracy, where the majority rules. The middle class is the majority on this country, and they are the ones this issue affects the most, and we are tired of illegal immigration.
this is a country that has ostracized germans, polish, irish, italian, japanese, chinese, african, native american, latin, middle eastern, communists, roman catholics, homosexuals, and women at points in our history. the movements were all widely supported at one point (some still are). you look at those boogiemen now and you laugh. history repeats itself.
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Follow the law or get the hell out. Love it or leave it. Come election day our voices will be heard loud and clear.
im sure youve never shoplifted, sped in your car, jaywalked, done drugs, drank underage, driven under the influence, got in a fight, etc. etc...
if you have done even ONE of the aforementioned, you have broken the law. Moderator cut: inappropriate language, inflammatory.
Last edited by Synopsis; 11-09-2007 at 05:19 AM..
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