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Old 04-29-2013, 01:46 PM
 
Location: CHicago, United States
6,936 posts, read 7,009,692 times
Reputation: 3487

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Quote:
Originally Posted by All American NYC View Post
The sad thing about this post is that you believe it.

I also think its appalling to compare illegals to George Washington, Black American slaves & civil rights leaders.
George Washington was an illegal, way back when.
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Old 04-29-2013, 01:51 PM
 
Location: Philadelphia, PA
116 posts, read 91,526 times
Reputation: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by All American NYC View Post
Thats where you are wrong. You justifying illegal actions.

There is harm, that is why we have laws for thieves who steal from a bank, air space laws and rapist laws, DUI laws etc....

Laws are laws. They don't belong here nor are they entitled to anything except a deportation ticket.

What makes them entitled over an legal immigrant?
I'm a legal realist. "They don't belong here" isn't something I'm willing to sign on with. Who belongs in America? Something as arbitrary as physical presence at birth shouldn't determine that. What if you were 1 day old when you came to America and lived here since? In my book that makes you just as American as anyone else.

Deportation is harsh, especially for mixed status families where some are American citizens and some are foreign citizens. The foreign country won't allow Americans, but our country is generous. We can allow their family to live together here. I think we ought to.
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Old 04-29-2013, 01:54 PM
 
31,888 posts, read 14,678,159 times
Reputation: 8497
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ubi Panis View Post
A bank robber or a rapist commits a crime against another person. You can point to a victim that is the direct result of the criminal action. When someone enters or stays in the country in violation of immigration laws, there is no direct victim. You could argue they take welfare, but it's OUR government that gives it to them. You can't hand someone money then call them a thief! To that end, they've violated a man made rule that hurt no one. And I don't buy that "taking our jobs" makes them bad. If that were the case then everyone in my college class is evil because they will take the jobs that I could have taken.

Between bank robbers and rapists, and criminals like Rosa Parks and fugitive slaves, I think immigrants are closer to the latter in terms of the severity of the "crime."
So now you are comparing a fellow citizen college student of getting a job instead of you as the being the same thing as an illegal breaking the law by working here and decreasing the jobs opportunities for Americans?

No direct victim? Are you kidding me? Working here illegally and/or reducing wages wages for Americans doesn't make them bad? You do know that those government handouts are funded by we the taxpayer, don't you?

I am so done listening to this nonsense. I have no further need to read your posts or repy to you.
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Old 04-29-2013, 01:57 PM
 
31,888 posts, read 14,678,159 times
Reputation: 8497
Quote:
Originally Posted by gomexico View Post
George Washington was an illegal, way back when.
Are you still continuing with this? And what relevence does it have to our immigration laws today?
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Old 04-29-2013, 01:58 PM
 
Location: Springville, AL
154 posts, read 176,026 times
Reputation: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldglory View Post
Most illegals aren't freedom seekers. They already have freedom in their own countries unless they are refugees. They are only here for economic gain but it negatively impacts the wages, job prospects and taxes of our own citizens. The groups you mentioned in the past had nothing to do with that. No one has the right to a better life at the expense of negatively impacting the citizens of any country and by breaking laws. Did those groups commit felony ID and SS theft? No, I don't think so and these are just some of the examples of why your analogy to the past is way off base. Granting amnesty for millions today would have a big negative impact on our own citizenry or don't we count?

Don't confuse any unjust laws of the past to today's immigration laws. There is nothing unjust about them. We have limits for immigration and for very good reasons.
Freedom in Mexico? I don't think so and their government is one of most corrupted, also drug cartels are serious issue.

Some immigrants fled from Mexico to US because of safety reason, especially dangerous part of northern border (Mexico).
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Old 04-29-2013, 01:59 PM
 
Location: Philadelphia, PA
116 posts, read 91,526 times
Reputation: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldglory View Post
Most illegals aren't freedom seekers. They already have freedom in their own countries unless they are refugees. They are only here for economic gain but it negatively impacts the wages, job prospects and taxes of our own citizens. The groups you mentioned in the past had nothing to do with that. No one has the right to a better life at the expense of negatively impacting the citizens of any country and by breaking laws. Did those groups commit felony ID and SS theft? No, I don't think so and these are just some of the examples of why your analogy to the past is way off base. Granting amnesty for millions today would have a big negative impact on our own citizenry or don't we count?

Don't confuse any unjust laws of the past to today's immigration laws. There is nothing unjust about them. We have limits for immigration and for very good reasons.
I agree that when they came they were seeking opportunity and not freedom. But what they want when they are here is the freedom to be able to lead their lives in peace. They could go to "their countries" but can their family? Can their job? Can their friends and the environment they call home? What if you were arbitrarily assigned to some country and forced to go there. Even if you would be free in that country, it doesn't mean you are free here if you are being forced to leave.

I don't think they necessarily always negatively impact citizens. Some do, but the argument there is counter intuitive. If we really wanted less SS fraud and identity theft, we could give them status, and they wouldn't need to commit that fraud. It seems circular.

Granting amnesty wouldn't really. They are already here. They are already working. The current situation is as amnesty as it gets. So why not take the fear away, start over, hit the reset button, close the border and move on by giving the 11 million status. If not we'd be in the current mess with unsecured borders and aliens hiding everywhere.

If you were to say that emancipating slaves would hurt whites because whites would no longer get free labor, it would be true but it would be a terrible moral argument. I don't mind immigrants having access to resources, they are people too, with needs and wants.

Immigration laws are totally necessary and we should have even stricter entry control. But these people are already here and their lives are already built here. Keeping them out is and humanely turning them around at the border is VERY different from plucking a family apart decades after its settled here.

I'm sorry if I've been a little aggressive about this I do feel quite strongly about it.
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Old 04-29-2013, 02:07 PM
 
Location: Philadelphia, PA
116 posts, read 91,526 times
Reputation: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldglory View Post
So now you are comparing a fellow citizen college student of getting a job instead of you as the being the same thing as an illegal breaking the law by working here and decreasing the jobs opportunities for Americans?

No direct victim? Are you kidding me? Working here illegally and/or reducing wages wages for Americans doesn't make them bad? You do know that those government handouts are funded by we the taxpayer, don't you?

I am so done listening to this nonsense. I have no further need to read your posts or repy to you.
A "citizen" is an arbitrary class based on location of birth. I feel no attachment to this arbitrary class. I feel a strong attachment to the nationality, American, and I think it is unrelated to citizenship. I think a citizen can be a bad American, and a non-citizen can be a great American. It's possible.

So attempting to define Americans into black and white, citizen and illegal labels to deny the latter basic human dignity and rights is wrong in my opinion.

I don't consider illegals to be foreigners. I consider them to be disenfranchised Americans who aren't given access to the same opportunities and freedoms.

EVERY worker reduces wages for American workers, immigrant or otherwise. Singling out immigrants is scape goating.

Yes government handouts are funded by the taxpayer. The government shouldn't give them handouts. It's the governments fault for giving, not their fault for taking.

I don't find your reasoning any more ideologically pleasant than you find mine, but this problem needs fixing.
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Old 04-29-2013, 02:21 PM
 
9,243 posts, read 7,113,681 times
Reputation: 2199
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ubi Panis View Post
I'm a legal realist. "They don't belong here" isn't something I'm willing to sign on with. Who belongs in America? Something as arbitrary as physical presence at birth shouldn't determine that. What if you were 1 day old when you came to America and lived here since? In my book that makes you just as American as anyone else.

Deportation is harsh, especially for mixed status families where some are American citizens and some are foreign citizens. The foreign country won't allow Americans, but our country is generous. We can allow their family to live together here. I think we ought to.
Well you may have to live with it.

You still did not answer my question. What makes them entitled over legal immigrants?
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Old 04-29-2013, 02:27 PM
 
9,243 posts, read 7,113,681 times
Reputation: 2199
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ubi Panis View Post
I agree that when they came they were seeking opportunity and not freedom. But what they want when they are here is the freedom to be able to lead their lives in peace. They could go to "their countries" but can their family? Can their job? Can their friends and the environment they call home? What if you were arbitrarily assigned to some country and forced to go there. Even if you would be free in that country, it doesn't mean you are free here if you are being forced to leave.

I don't think they necessarily always negatively impact citizens. Some do, but the argument there is counter intuitive. If we really wanted less SS fraud and identity theft, we could give them status, and they wouldn't need to commit that fraud. It seems circular.

Granting amnesty wouldn't really. They are already here. They are already working. The current situation is as amnesty as it gets. So why not take the fear away, start over, hit the reset button, close the border and move on by giving the 11 million status. If not we'd be in the current mess with unsecured borders and aliens hiding everywhere.

If you were to say that emancipating slaves would hurt whites because whites would no longer get free labor, it would be true but it would be a terrible moral argument. I don't mind immigrants having access to resources, they are people too, with needs and wants.

Immigration laws are totally necessary and we should have even stricter entry control. But these people are already here and their lives are already built here. Keeping them out is and humanely turning them around at the border is VERY different from plucking a family apart decades after its settled here.

I'm sorry if I've been a little aggressive about this I do feel quite strongly about it.
Does that justify for every immigrant that followed the legal channels? Why should we placed them higher over the legal immigrants and Americans. What respect have they shown for us?

Your argument holds no weight and is weak. These people voluntarily came here unlawful and could care less about the word respect, integrity, and honor.


There is no reason we should place them higher or even in the same light with legal immigrants.
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Old 04-29-2013, 02:32 PM
 
Location: Philadelphia, PA
116 posts, read 91,526 times
Reputation: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by All American NYC View Post
Well you may have to live with it.

You still did not answer my question. What makes them entitled over legal immigrants?
Ideally, nothing. But on a case by case basis, we should see who stands to lose the most. A legal immigrant who is outside of the country doesn't have their whole life set up here. They probably don't have family or a job here.

But yea I don't think undocumented immigrants should be treated better than documented ones. I say let all of them come/stay. It's not like a ridiculously destabilizing amount of people want to come here. The legal line has 4 million people. We already have 11 million here. Add em together and let them in. Problem solved. People are an asset, not a liability. We had 3 million people in 1776, we were poor. We have 300 million now, and we're the richest in the world. Like I said, people are an asset. More Americans the merrier.
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