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Old 10-31-2007, 07:27 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,610,630 times
Reputation: 2983

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Quote:
Originally Posted by AAPoolServiceLV View Post
Everyone misses the point about Illegal Immigrants (PERIOD). There is no such thing! Immigrants are LEGAL (PERIOD). Everyone who is here in the USA that doesn't have the proper papers is Illegal and is a LAWBREAKER! and HAS NO RIGHT TO BE HERE! (PERIOD) If you want to come to this country and make a good living PLEASE WAIT YOUR TURN (PERIOD)

Illigal Aliens have no accountability for what they do. They dont play with the same rules Citizen's have to play by. I wish people would get this into your head! Where does all this nonsense come from? Is this what kids are taught in school these days?
You are a very pragmatic poster--I've read many of our posts. But your outlook isn't shared by all. What seems like a simple issue to you (and me, and some others) has been turned into a complicated, contentious, angry and emotional issue, by the simple fact that the "race card" can be played. And once that card is played, "all bets are off"...

Any argument, any problem, from murder, rape, and theft, right down to littering, loitering, and public drunkenness, can be turned into a three-ring circus if it can be shown that in any way it involves two or more races.

On a broad scale, this issue is being painted as a struggle between "white" Americans (even Filipinos qualify, I guess, as long as they're American citzens)against "brown" immigrants (even though illegals come in many colors).

Thus a legal issue, in a complex situation involving trespassing, breach of national soveriegnty, the economic problems, overloading of schools, hospitals, prisons, and all sorts of other interconnected problems is reduced to only one "important" cause--and that is "Racism"-- either you're for us, the argument goes, or you're a racist.

Is this silly, simplistic, and dishonest? Of course it is. But that's the reality in America in 2007. There's no valid argument or coherent well-presented case that can be made on any subject, that can't be trumped by playing the "race card". And, in essence, that's what's being done here. As a result, it's almost impossible to have a serious discussion on this issue---but we're still trying...

Keep up your posts...
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Old 10-31-2007, 07:30 PM
 
17,279 posts, read 24,957,665 times
Reputation: 8519
Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernBelle3 View Post
I work around Hispanics with proper documentation and are here legally. Let me tell you this. They despise the illegal aliens, at least the ones I have spoken with. They played by the rules, waited their turn for a green card, and learned English. Now they are furious at any amnesty. To them, it is unfair. Why did they have to work so hard and play by the rules? They also are surprised as their income rises that they must pay taxes, yet no longer benefit from the welfare and medicaid because they have joined the millions of Americans living paycheck to paycheck but making to much for "freebies". See, it didn't pay them to play by the rules. The illegals can get free health care at the local emergency roon and they cannot. Don't tell me illegals don't affect our society!
I would venture that most immigrants who came here legally have the same attitude. I am first generation on my father's side and have LOTS of immigrants in my extended family (European Latin and a South American step-grandparent who has since been disowned by the family for reasons not connected to her Hispanicness). The pro-illegal crowd just has a really hard time understanding because it causes a sort of cognitive dissonance in the heads of people who like to claim that opposition to unchecked and unprecedented illegal immigration is opposed by anyone but racist old white people with no teeth.

Newsflash: It aint just old white people. As I have said before, I have NEVER heard a more heated anti-illegal immigrant tirade than that which came from a middle aged black man in front of me at the supermarket checkout when he thought a more-than-likely-illegal woman (paying with foodstamps, of course) cut in front of him in line.
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Old 10-31-2007, 07:35 PM
 
Location: Northern VA (for now)
22,998 posts, read 31,942,334 times
Reputation: 30367
Quote:
Originally Posted by TriMT7 View Post

Newsflash: It aint just old white people. As I have said before, I have NEVER heard a more heated anti-illegal immigrant tirade than that which came from a middle aged black man in front of me at the supermarket checkout when he thought a more-than-likely-illegal woman (paying with foodstamps, of course) cut in front of him in line.
Count me as a YOUNG black male who aint happy about illegals either.
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Old 10-31-2007, 07:44 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,610,630 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TriMT7 View Post
Illegals will self-deport, and cheap employers will start going through the PROPER channels to secure laborers when Americans "really can't" be found to do certain jobs. One poster here who owned a farm pretty much admitted the laws aren't followed because it's too hard and too expensive.

.
I'll differ with you a little on this, though I agree with most of your post. I think I know the poster you're referring to, and will have to say that crop work may continue to need imported labor. It's that hard, and that unpleasant. But we once had the old "bracero" system, and I could bet you any amount of money we'd have no trouble repeating it.

Go into Mexico, and there offer jobs---"I need X number of pickers...I'll pay $5000 for a 4-month season. 6 day week, living quarters furnished, workers only--no dependents. At the end of your contract, free transpotation home, and first dibs at the next season if I need you".

You'd have no end to people gladly taking these jobs, even if that's all they got all year. In California we have harvests all year long--a person could return 2 or 3 times per year, if he wanted. Repeat this 3 times per year ?--that's a small FORTUNE in Mexico...They'd be lining up like our own "Alaska Pipeline" crews were back in "the days"...Everyone was willing to sacrifice a little to get that "big money" to bring home...

WHAT? Can't take the family? Well, neither can merchant seamen, tugboat crews, etc. Some jobs are just that way. If all you really wanted to do was earn your way out of poverty, this would be a godsend.
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Old 10-31-2007, 07:48 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,610,630 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alanboy395 View Post
Count me as a YOUNG black male who aint happy about illegals either.
Yes, those angry "white" Americans DO come in many colors..
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Old 10-31-2007, 07:50 PM
 
17,279 posts, read 24,957,665 times
Reputation: 8519
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
I'll differ with you a little on this, though I agree with most of your post. I think I know the poster you're referring to, and will have to say that crop work may continue to need imported labor. It's that hard, and that unpleasant. But we once had the old "bracero" system, and I could bet you any amount of money we'd have no trouble repeating it.
The "H--whatever" visa program I cited for "this particular poster" who claimed there was no such visa program for migrant or agricultural labor was dimsissed as being "too hard" because it called for transportation and living quarters guarantees along with PROVING no Americans could be found to do the job.

What you describe below, however:

Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal
Go into Mexico, and there offer jobs---"I need X number of pickers...I'll pay $5000 for a 4-month season. 6 day week, living quarters furnished, workers only--no dependents. At the end of your contract, free transpotation home, and first dibs at the next season if I need you".
Sounds perfectly reasonable, and well within the means of farmers who pay (though I STILL don't believe it) $30/hour for field labor. Is that the basics of the Bracero program?

Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal
You'd have no end to people gladly taking these jobs, even if that's all they got all year. In California we have harvests all year long--a person could return 2 or 3 times per year, if he wanted. Repeat this 3 times per year ?--that's a small FORTUNE in Mexico...They'd be lining up like our own "Alaska Pipeline" crews were back in "the days"...Everyone was willing to sacrifice a little to get that "big money" to bring home...

WHAT? Can't take the family? Well, neither can merchant seamen, tugboat crews, etc. Some jobs are just that way. If all you really wanted to do was earn your way out of poverty, this would be a godsend.
The second paragraph is gold. If I was allowed to rep you again, I would (and MINE are worth 2 points these days, lol)... but alas, I need to "spread some around" first.
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Old 10-31-2007, 08:06 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,610,630 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by TriMT7 View Post
The
What you describe below, however:



Sounds perfectly reasonable, and well within the means of farmers who pay (though I STILL don't believe it) $30/hour for field labor. Is that the basics of the Bracero program?

Briefly, the "bracero" program ("brazos"= arms..."arm workers") basically began during WWII to address wartime labor shortages--both in agriculture and briefly in railroad track maintenance. The "Ag" program worked well, and was used clear up into the 1960's. The US and Mexican government "sanctioned" the temporary movement across the border each year of a certain requested number of specified laborers, who, it was understood, had to return home at the end of work.

Don't know all the details, but I suppose there were some abuse issues, etc. But in theory, if closely supervised, the program basically did well and served its purpose. Might be that it just seemed to much like "indentured servitude" to our modern sensibilities. I remember it, but of course was too young to notice all the specifics...

I think the "braceros" filed some sort of lawsuit some years back over the disappearance of some sort of pension funds--here or in Mexico---but don't recall much about it. This sounds like a problem that could easily be avoided in the future, though..



The second paragraph is gold. If I was allowed to rep you again, I would (and MINE are worth 2 points these days, lol)... but alas, I need to "spread some around" first.
Thanks for your accolades.. Sorry I "screwed up" the above reply--hope you can sort it out...
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Old 10-31-2007, 08:15 PM
 
3,712 posts, read 5,708,999 times
Reputation: 1284
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
I'll differ with you a little on this, though I agree with most of your post. I think I know the poster you're referring to, and will have to say that crop work may continue to need imported labor. It's that hard, and that unpleasant. But we once had the old "bracero" system, and I could bet you any amount of money we'd have no trouble repeating it.

Go into Mexico, and there offer jobs---"I need X number of pickers...I'll pay $5000 for a 4-month season. 6 day week, living quarters furnished, workers only--no dependents. At the end of your contract, free transpotation home, and first dibs at the next season if I need you".

You'd have no end to people gladly taking these jobs, even if that's all they got all year. In California we have harvests all year long--a person could return 2 or 3 times per year, if he wanted. Repeat this 3 times per year ?--that's a small FORTUNE in Mexico...They'd be lining up like our own "Alaska Pipeline" crews were back in "the days"...Everyone was willing to sacrifice a little to get that "big money" to bring home...

WHAT? Can't take the family? Well, neither can merchant seamen, tugboat crews, etc. Some jobs are just that way. If all you really wanted to do was earn your way out of poverty, this would be a godsend.
This opportunity should be offered to citizens of other impoverished countries. They would most likely be very appreciative of the chance to work in the US and, IMO, much more likey to abide by the rules of the agreement and not simply 'disappear' when their contract is up. It is time we think about helping poor people from around the world who will not burn our flag and form racist ethnocentric organizations. Let's give these people a chance to get on their feet. There is no reason the needed workers cannot come from other parts of the world.
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Old 10-31-2007, 09:15 PM
 
Location: new mexico
447 posts, read 705,862 times
Reputation: 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by ProLogic View Post
Again, only an assumptions on your part. You know its quite funny actually. Prior to coming onto these forums I have never heard of any illegal immigrant raping anyone. As for the murdering, it happened in 2003 at a local carrows. But it was an illegal immigrant on illegal immigrant murder. Again, not all illegals are murders and/or rapists. People just bring up these sort of stories and emotions to make cheap political points.

these are not cheap political points : they are true facts.
as i respect your opinions, i do think you should google a few websites to confirm what people are claiming.
i know that illegal immigration is a problem from personal experience., and have learned this from not the internet or the news media, but from law emforcement officials that have had their hands tied in enforcing the laws.
california is not the only state that has illegals, and if you are unaware of the numbers, and the cases, all you have to do is do the research .... please, use this case number as your first project... crcr961553..stat4e of new mexico vs. roberto flores.
public records are available to anyone who wants them....
this is a problem, whether you believe it or not, and you should give thanks that you or someone you love has not been affected by it yet.
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Old 10-31-2007, 10:17 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,611,035 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
Yes, those angry "white" Americans DO come in many colors..
I have noticed that as well:

All of us suddenly become 'White Supremacists'-----even if our skin is pitch black when we start speaking out against the illegals.
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