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I stand for civil rights for "illegals." I don't think they should be made second class non-citizens due to civil infractions.
As non citizens, they by definition have no US civil rights. So you stand for nothing.
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Our laws are bad. There is near universal agreement that our immigration system is broken.
I call BS. Where are your facts of "near universal" agreement? How many countries have more lax laws than we do? How many open their arms to welcomes those that do not respect their laws?
Try a different lie.
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Not at all. I want them to get right with the law in a fair and compassionate way. I'm all for civil penalties like fines and probationary conditions like mandating employment and English and civic lessons. I'm certainly not in favor of having a race police that goes looking for "Mexican-looking" people to check their papers as some of the other threads here suggest. That would be outrageous, unconstitutional and contrary to our values and laws.
A "race of police"? You are now showing racism on your part. Mexicans are not a different race, merely a ethnically different culture.
In truth, you are not in favor of anything that hampers or inconveniences your precious illegals.
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I'm not in favor of making their lives miserable and then hope that makes them leave. It hasn't worked and it's unnecessarily punitive, and again, grossly contrary to the idea of a free and open society.
Are you in favor of these illegals obeying our laws once they are here? They won't.
You cite reasons as you see them. It would be far less miserable for them if they came here legally or just stayed home. How does their home country handle unwanted immigrants? Learn the lesson.
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We can both agree that we dislike illegal immigration. But only one of us dislikes illegal immigrants.
Keep dreaming and trying to put your words in the mouths of others. Cite one example where I have attacked an illegal immigrant as an individual. Your lies are getting out of control.
As non citizens, they by definition have no US civil rights. So you stand for nothing.
Where have I heard that before?
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Dred Scott v. Sandford, 60 U.S. 393 (1857), also known as the Dred Scott Decision, was a landmark decision by the U.S. Supreme Court.
It made two main rulings. The first ruling was that African-Americans were not citizens, and therefore had no standing to sue in federal court.
Yep, Black American slaves were denied rights under the same doctrine 150 years ago. The Supreme Court of the United States said Blacks were not citizens. Rights are for citizens, and they are not citizens, therefore no rights for them.
When you are are aligning yourself with the most shameful court decision in the history of the United States, you are surely in good company.
Of course, this has since been overturned by the 14th Amendment.
Also, you should note the US Constitution makes many distinctions between "persons" and "citizens." In most of the rights it protects, it protects them for all people, not just citizens. So your idea that all American rights only extend to citizens is wrong.
But all of this is moot, because even if "US civil rights" were exclusive, human civil rights are not. It is my view that all humans deserve basic civil rights, with very few exceptions regarding violent individuals who present a danger to others.
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Originally Posted by Arjay51
I call BS. Where are your facts of "near universal" agreement? How many countries have more lax laws than we do? How many open their arms to welcomes those that do not respect their laws?
I reject your premise that people who are unlawfully present in America don't respect our laws. Especially in the case of those brought here as children, since they had no part in deciding to break a law.
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Originally Posted by Arjay51
A "race of police"? You are now showing racism on your part. Mexicans are not a different race, merely a ethnically different culture.
In truth, you are not in favor of anything that hampers or inconveniences your precious illegals.
When you put something in quotes, the idea is to quote it precisely as it was stated. I said "race police" not "race of police" whatever that means. My insinuation was a police agency that primarily checks people of the Hispanic ethnicity to try to find illegal immigrants, as was suggested by the first post of this thread.
I agree that would be incredibly racist, which is why I am opposed to it. So far that's the only solution the anti-immigrant side has come up with.
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Originally Posted by Arjay51
Are you in favor of these illegals obeying our laws once they are here? They won't.
I'm in favor of them obeying laws, and I don't see why they won't. The research clearly shows they commit crimes at a lower rate than the native population.
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Originally Posted by Arjay51
You cite reasons as you see them. It would be far less miserable for them if they came here legally or just stayed home. How does their home country handle unwanted immigrants? Learn the lesson.
There is no legal path for poor unskilled workers to come to America. The agriculture visa quota is far too low to cover the labor shortage.
It doesn't matter at all how their countries handle immigration. That kind of reflexive logic is flawed. North Korea just sentenced an American to 15 years of hard labor in a sham trial. Should we follow their lead with North Koreans living in America? The last thing we should do is mimic bad policy.
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Originally Posted by Arjay51
Keep dreaming and trying to put your words in the mouths of others. Cite one example where I have attacked an illegal immigrant as an individual. Your lies are getting out of control.
You have repeatedly attempted to cast unlawfully present immigrants as selfish people who don't respect any laws. That's a judgement of their character not their actions, and it speaks to your prejudice against them.
We don't want second class citizens either as there is no such thing anyway. They are illegal aliens not citizens.
It doesn't matter what ones want to call it civil, criminal or whatever. Our laws state they are to be deported.
There is no universal agreement that our laws are bad. Doesn't matter anyway we have every right to make whatever immigration laws that we wish without worrying about what other nations think.
None of the so-called fines or penalties would be enforced because for one thing we lack the monies to carry through with such a huge undertaking. Our government can't even seem to keep track of visa overstayers. The bottom line is that it will only encourge more illegal immigration and we need the jobs that they are holding and we certainly don't need more people on our welfare rolls. Our taxes are already sky high supporting our own poor.
Hardly anyone is talking about rounding up anyone who looks illegal or Mexican. The majority would rather see them self-deport by removing the incentives for them to remain here. It hasn't worked? Well we haven't tried it yet!! Since when would that be an anti-a free society? Maybe someone needs to take a course in what is meant by a free society in this country. Hint....it doesn't include lawbreaking especially by illegal foreingers.
Objecting to or disliking lawbreakers or their actions is normal. The opposite is not. I especially dislike those who steal from others and that is what illegal aliens do.
We don't want second class citizens either as there is no such thing anyway. They are illegal aliens not citizens.
The semantics of it are irrelevant, because in practice they are treated as an inferior class.
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Originally Posted by Oldglory
It doesn't matter what ones want to call it civil, criminal or whatever. Our laws state they are to be deported.
Sure, but our laws also allow us to change our laws if we find them to be unreasonable or inhumane.
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Originally Posted by Oldglory
There is no universal agreement that our laws are bad. Doesn't matter anyway we have every right to make whatever immigration laws that we wish without worrying about what other nations think.
None of the so-called fines or penalties would be enforced because for one thing we lack the monies to carry through with such a huge undertaking. Our government can't even seem to keep track of visa overstayers.
That's one of the first points I can somewhat agree on. But I don't think it's a good enough reason to not do it.
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Originally Posted by Oldglory
The bottom line is that it will only encourge more illegal immigration and we need the jobs that they are holding and we certainly don't need more people on our welfare rolls. Our taxes are already sky high supporting our own poor.
I wouldn't support legalization if it didn't cut off future illegal immigration. Between the mandatory E-Verify, entry-exit tracking and personnel and money being sent to the border, I think even if any foreigners thought they could come in for a next Amnesty would not be able to.
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Originally Posted by Oldglory
Hardly anyone is talking about rounding up anyone who looks illegal or Mexican. The majority would rather see them self-deport by removing the incentives for them to remain here. It hasn't worked? Well we haven't tried it yet!!
We have, it's what we are doing now. We haven't gone as extreme as cutting off their oxygen supply...yet, but there is a squeeze on them that is, at least in my mind, excessive and unsightly for a country as great as America.
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Originally Posted by Oldglory
Since when would that anti-a free society? Maybe someone needs to take a course in what is meant by a free society in this country. Hint....it doesn't include lawbreaking especially by illegal foreingers.
I don't necessarily consider them foreigners. If you have lived the majority of your life in America, sound like an American, act like an American, then you are an American in my book. Physical presence at birth is ridiculously inconsequential to your identity. And when Americans are being denied civil rights due to laws that keep them from supporting their families or earning a basic wage, then I don't think their lawbreaking is all that morally grievous.
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Originally Posted by Oldglory
Objecting to or disliking lawbreakers or their actions is normal. The opposite is not. I especially dislike those who steal from others and that is what illegal aliens do.
Right because someone being able to drive just kills all us law abiding citizens. Your crocodile tears for the citizen are a sham. You want to punish these people because of your extreme dislike of them, not some attachment to the rest of us.
An illegal can drive here, so long as they have a DL from their home nation, in fact any-non-immigrant can do so just this way. Your claims are a sham (meaning: you don't know anything about laws or what you are talking about.)
Guilty as charged. I stand for civil rights for "illegals." I don't think they should be made second class non-citizens due to civil infractions.
They are entitled to an IJ hearing, if found guilty, they are deported. If they are caught again, they are banned. An EWI at the border or in the BZ is a Federal Misdemeanor, a second one is a Federal Felony, both with bars from entering and eventually ban from ever entering.
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Originally Posted by Ubi Panis
Our laws are bad. There is near universal agreement that our immigration system is broken.
Your opinion.
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Originally Posted by Ubi Panis
Not at all. I want them to get right with the law in a fair and compassionate way. I'm all for civil penalties like fines and probationary conditions like mandating employment and English and civic lessons. I'm certainly not in favor of having a race police that goes looking for "Mexican-looking" people to check their papers as some of the other threads here suggest. That would be outrageous, unconstitutional and contrary to our values and laws.
Police do have the ability to verify their status. Nothing unconstitutional or contrary to our values about it.
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Originally Posted by Ubi Panis
I'm not in favor of making their lives miserable and then hope that makes them leave. It hasn't worked and it's unnecessarily punitive, and again, grossly contrary to the idea of a free and open society.
It hasn't been tried. So many adjectives in one paragraph. I don't believe you know what a "free and open society" really means.
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Originally Posted by Ubi Panis
We can both agree that we dislike illegal immigration. But only one of us dislikes illegal immigrants.
For one, we rely on their labor for our food being cheap, which it wouldn't be if we were paying American farm workers who pick the crops a lawful wage with expensive OSHA compliance. The housing boom which saw many Americans get rich, couldn't have happened without unlawfully cheap labor provided by the illegal immigrants in the construction industry.
Your claimed has been debunked by UC Davis already. The rest of your claim is BS and shows you haven't a clue about it.
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Originally Posted by Ubi Panis
In a way, we created a dispensable worker. Here when the economy is good and we need them, and scapegoated and deported when we don't. We take their labor, but we don't give them our rights, our labor law protections, and our services.
The are covered by labor laws. Our "rights" are reserved, their rights are limited.
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Originally Posted by Ubi Panis
What I'm saying is it's a two way street, and in a way, everyone including the government, businesses, consumers, and immigrants have been complicit.
So, if its everybody's fault, then its nobody's fault. Many come here for their own economic gain.
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Originally Posted by Ubi Panis
So going forward, we have to realize our part in this mess. We create a legal agricultural worker program so we can bring as many workers as needed to cover future labor shortages. We keep them legal and afford them same protections we have. We swallow the higher cost of food and rent due to the fair wages paid to these people. And once this fair system has been implemented, there is no excuse to break it. We can get harsh with people who try to go around this system.
As for the past entrants, we realize that many have been exploited due to their status. In dealing with them, we punish them, but not excessively.
We already have a legal agricultural worker program so we can bring as many workers as needed to cover future labor shortages, it's called the H2A visa, there is no cap limit on it. They have protections either way.
Higher cost of food and rent? SMFH, fuel cost adds a higher cost to food than does wages. You operate on the assumption that migrant farm workers are paid sub-standard wages. I suggest you do some research and find out how mistaken you are.
Your claimed has been debunked by UC Davis already. The rest of your claim is BS and shows you haven't a clue about it.
The are covered by labor laws. Our "rights" are reserved, their rights are limited.
So, if its everybody's fault, then its nobody's fault. Many come here for their own economic gain.
We already have a legal agricultural worker program so we can bring as many workers as needed to cover future labor shortages, it's called the H2A visa, there is no cap limit on it. They have protections either way.
Higher cost of food and rent? SMFH, fuel cost adds a higher cost to food than does wages. You operate on the assumption that migrant farm workers are paid sub-standard wages. I suggest you do some research and find out how mistaken you are.
Your entire arguments are based on fairy tale.
Agreed. Not to mention that there are only 3-4% of illegals picking crops anyway. What about the other 96-97% of illegals? Are they all doing jobs that Americans won't do? I think not!
I will be damned if I will pay for the greed and complacenty of a minority of Americans who turned a blind eye to this problem and profited from illegal immigrant labor. Even if some savings were passed on to Americans from this illegal labor it doesn't begin to cover the higher taxes we pay contributing to their social needs. Our government needs to own up to the problem they created and do the right thing for Americans and that is to start enforcing our immigration laws by continued deporations, securing our borders and removing the incentives for illegals to remain here or to continue to come here not some idiotic amnesty that will only harm our citizens further.
I have seen some of the shoddy work that these illegals did during the housing boom. There is an entire tract of homes across the street from me where there were so many problems that many who bought them just vacated their houses and moved on. And where were the savings from this illegal immigrant labor? These houses were sky high in price when they were first sold.
Yep, Black American slaves were denied rights under the same doctrine 150 years ago. The Supreme Court of the United States said Blacks were not citizens. Rights are for citizens, and they are not citizens, therefore no rights for them.
When you are are aligning yourself with the most shameful court decision in the history of the United States, you are surely in good company.
Even as slaves, blacks had some rights, they were limited. After the 13-15th amendments that changed and gave them full rights as US citizens. To call a court decision shameful is hilarious, it only goes to show you know or understand very little history and would rather argue based on your own presumptions.
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Originally Posted by Ubi Panis
Of course, this has since been overturned by the 14th Amendment.
Actually it was the 13th Amendment.
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Originally Posted by Ubi Panis
Also, you should note the US Constitution makes many distinctions between "persons" and "citizens." In most of the rights it protects, it protects them for all people, not just citizens. So your idea that all American rights only extend to citizens is wrong.
WRONG. Illegals are afforded the 5th, 6th , and 14th EPC protections. That is it. Your idea that they are entitled to more rights than what they have is wrong.
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Originally Posted by Ubi Panis
But all of this is moot, because even if "US civil rights" were exclusive, human civil rights are not. It is my view that all humans deserve basic civil rights, with very few exceptions regarding violent individuals who present a danger to others.
If you knew anything about the Human Civil Rights Decelerations, you would realize it isn't as exclusive as you believe, as it doesn't allow for foreigners to live where they choose, it only allows for them to leave their own country, it does not require another country to accept them.
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Originally Posted by Ubi Panis
I reject your premise that people who are unlawfully present in America don't respect our laws. Especially in the case of those brought here as children, since they had no part in deciding to break a law.
Thats a rather broad brushed statement, as some "children" come on their own knowing full well what they are doing.
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Originally Posted by Ubi Panis
When you put something in quotes, the idea is to quote it precisely as it was stated. I said "race police" not "race of police" whatever that means. My insinuation was a police agency that primarily checks people of the Hispanic ethnicity to try to find illegal immigrants, as was suggested by the first post of this thread.
I agree that would be incredibly racist, which is why I am opposed to it. So far that's the only solution the anti-immigrant side has come up with.
Again, once an officer has a person stopped or booked they can verify status. Nothing racist about it.
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Originally Posted by Ubi Panis
I'm in favor of them obeying laws, and I don't see why they won't. The research clearly shows they commit crimes at a lower rate than the native population.
The research says it is limited, others have claimed different based on that research.
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Originally Posted by Ubi Panis
There is no legal path for poor unskilled workers to come to America. The agriculture visa quota is far too low to cover the labor shortage.
Sure there is. An H2A visa allows as many unskilled workers as is needed, since there is no annual cap on it. Learn about what you are claiming prior to making false claims. http://www.cgdev.org/doc/migration/H...t_Sheet8.6.pdf
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Originally Posted by Ubi Panis
It doesn't matter at all how their countries handle immigration. That kind of reflexive logic is flawed. North Korea just sentenced an American to 15 years of hard labor in a sham trial. Should we follow their lead with North Koreans living in America? The last thing we should do is mimic bad policy.
And yet the UN recognizes every nation has its right to protect its borders.
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Originally Posted by Ubi Panis
You have repeatedly attempted to cast unlawfully present immigrants as selfish people who don't respect any laws. That's a judgement of their character not their actions, and it speaks to your prejudice against them.
One shouldn't be prejudiced against lawbreakers? Really? It is selfish to break laws and steal from others. How can anyone rational the opposite?
Blacks were citizens and were treated unfairly and I think most of us are in agreement with that but illegals aren't citizens. They are here in violation of our immigration laws so it is not the same thing. They aren't being treated unfairly. They have basic human rights and that is all they are entitled to. No one has the human or civil right to violate another country's immigration laws.
As for "immigrant" crime rates. Who knows whom these researches are referring to since they blur the lines between legal and illegal all the time.
Where are we mimicking North Korea? We are deporting illegals not sentencing them to 15 years of hard labor unless they have been "convicted" of a very serious crime.
And finally the police are not questioning the status of Hispanics based on their ethnicity or skin color. They have to have reasonable suspicion or have seen them break the law first hand like a traffic violation to question their status and even at that they are first ask for a viable ID and if they don't have one then and only then can they question their status. This would hold true no matter who you are.
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Many come here for their own economic gain.
fuel cost adds a higher cost to food than does wages. You operate on the assumption that migrant farm workers are paid sub-standard wages. I suggest you do some research and find out how mistaken you are.
