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Old 05-20-2013, 05:01 PM
 
31,476 posts, read 14,565,596 times
Reputation: 8351

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharks With Lasers View Post
I'm not sure the responders have gotten my point.

I am against illegal immigration in all phases. Illegal immigrants should be deported (I might be willing to make exceptions for children who were brought here, but otherwise no.) Businesses that employ illegal immigrants should be punished. In fact, it seems crazy to me how anybody could support illegal immigration.

The problem I have is that when people drastically overstate illegal immigrants' numbers or effects on society, it goes from opposing illegal immigration to spreading distortions. That's where I have the issue.

Plus, for most of you guys, it means a lot less Democrats if amnesty passes.

What do you care what supposed exaggerations there are about lawbreakers? Are you worried about hurtiing their feelings? People believe whatever stats they think are correct. There is no way of knowing the full impact of illegal immigration on our country but we do know it is a negative so what's the big deal with stats anyway?

My objection to illegal immigration has nothing to do with the more Democrat voters it might produce if they become citizens. It certainly is a driving factor for the Democrats though.

 
Old 05-20-2013, 09:06 PM
 
3,186 posts, read 5,452,602 times
Reputation: 1818
For sure most american citizens do. Problem is that most of our elected stooges because of their own agendas DO NOT....for this reason all elected officials should be required to sign a contract as to what they will and will not support BEFORE they take office. The first time they don't vote like they said they would they would be immediately impeached .Too bad a practical solution like this will never happen.
 
Old 05-21-2013, 07:26 AM
 
Location: North Texas
23,599 posts, read 31,143,716 times
Reputation: 26656
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharks With Lasers View Post
...or are they more more interested in creating a bogeyman?

There are many threads where posters vastly overstate the number of illegal immigrants, their growth rates, and the effect that they are having on American culture with the whole "people don't speak English anymore." (Why am I typing in English then?)
It used to be that in north Dallas, it was unusual to hear a language other than English being spoken in public. Now it's possible for me to push a cart around a Wal-Mart in an affluent north Dallas neighborhood and hear nothing but Spanish...even on the PA. Signs in stores that used to be in English only are now in English and Spanish...including 'Now Hiring' signs. If you can't speak English, you shouldn't be working in a customer-facing role anywhere in this country.

Quote:
It seems to me, that if we're really interested in quelling illegal immigration, we should be celebrating that illegal immigration rates have slowed dramatically and quite possibly have reversed.
Sorry pal, that fantasty doesn't match the reality on the ground in north Texas. If anything we have more of them than ever. Maybe they're migrating here from other states. But the point is they're here, and they have no right to be. They need to get their butts back to their home countries.

Quote:
We should be celebrating que la mayoría de los estadounidenses hablan inglés (or need Google Translate.)
I speak Spanish and I know what that says, but the only acceptable language on CD per TOS is English.

Quote:
We should be happy that even if amnesty ever happened (which I'm against) that it's only 11 million new Democrats and not 75 million.
That's kind of like being grateful that the man who broke into your house "only" raped and beat you instead of torturing and killing you.

Quote:
But nobody seems to be focusing on this. It's easier just to hate on illegal immigrants.
What ever gave you the idea that people don't take your points into consideration? We just don't think they're relevant to the debate, and 11 million illegals is not acceptable to us.

Speaking personally, I don't hate illegal immigrants as people. I hate their crimes. I hate their attitudes. However, I think when they are rounded up and deported, they should be treated with the same dignity and respect that any other human should expect. No physical or verbal abuse, no withholding of food or medical care...just treat them with dignity and respect as you process them, fingerprint them, photograph them, and dump them on the other side of the border or put them on a plane back home. Period.
 
Old 05-21-2013, 12:29 PM
 
Location: Mexico City, formerly Columbus, Ohio
12,766 posts, read 12,744,983 times
Reputation: 5440
Quote:
Originally Posted by Idon'tdateyou View Post
Btw in fact I can speak Spanish. However I shouldn't have to for a job or to apply for welfare (if this applied to me but am not on welfare)or to speak to people who refuse to learn English.
How do you know they refuse to learn English? English is not exactly the easiest language to learn to begin with, but if you're encountering first generation immigrants, it probably has nothing to do with refusing to learn. There are many reasons why they might not.

Further, maybe you should stop blaming others for not having the education and drive to be in a position in life where you don't have to compete for jobs with people who don't even speak the language. That reflects FAR more poorly on you than it does them.
 
Old 05-21-2013, 12:39 PM
 
Location: Mexico City, formerly Columbus, Ohio
12,766 posts, read 12,744,983 times
Reputation: 5440
Quote:
Originally Posted by lifeexplorer View Post
On the emotional side:

I am an immigrant myself, legal immigrant. I spent $10K on my immigration process not including lost job opportunities. Just the raw cost. I was on a super fast track and it took me 5 years. In the meantime, I was paying American taxes and hiring American workers.

I can't imagine what the life would be for those who aren't on the fast track. They, some I know, have to endure 10+ years of family separation and lost career opportunities to just get a green card.

Not to say life is all fair and square but for those 11 million, which when the whole thing started was 17 million and given they underestimated last time in a ration of 1:3, I would peg this at 33-51 million, it's not just a slap on the face for us who are here legally. It makes the whole immigration process into a farce!

On the logical side:

You, Americans, are screwing yourselves. The only people who will be benefited from granting amnesty are:
1. Democrats, at least 75% of the illegals will vote for them.
2. The rich, they get vast amount of cheap labor for decades.

The rest of you, the 99%, will get screwed royally!!! Given we have 25 million Americans out of job today, once you add those 33-51 million illegals into the labor market, you are never going to find a job, EVER!!!

The middle class, we all need to fork out more money to pay for their welfare, of course.

I do not see how anybody can tell me, in good conscience, this is good for America.
First, what nation did you come from? That makes a difference. Second, if someone doesn't have $10K lined up, does that make the unworthy to come to the US? I don't know many native Americans who have that much just sitting in an account, let alone the poor Mexican most likely to attempt illegal immigration. Why shouldn't the immigration process be more streamlined and account for different economic and social circumstances? Why should families needlessly be separated for a decade or more? What you describe already makes the process a farce, not amnesty.

The fact that you went through the process, know all the BS associated with it, and then stand on your self-righteous pedestal in manufactured outrage after the fact is pretty disgusting, actually.

If immigrants are voting for the Democrats, why is that bad? Wouldn't that be true if they believed the Democrats shared more of their own values and had more of their interests in mind? Isn't that why anyone votes for anyone? If Republicans can't win their vote, the problem is not the immigrants.

And I thought the rich were the "job creators" and we should let them do anything they want because private business always does the right thing...

There are millions out of work because of a global recession. Immigrants, legal or otherwise, did not cause it.

There are not 50 million illegals.
 
Old 05-21-2013, 12:45 PM
 
Location: Southeast, where else?
3,914 posts, read 4,008,086 times
Reputation: 5781
The only reason the numbers are "down" is because of the economy. Period. No aggressive tactics could begin to slow the herd once this economy picks up. It just can't. They don't come here to take in the view. They come here to work.

Relative to their economy, a peso is worth what? 1/12th of a dollar, give or take? Said another way, if they make $100-$150 per day working, they are making (in their minds) roughly $1,000-$1,500 in the same time that it took to make $100-$150 in their country.....relatively speaking.

And you wonder why they come here with a smile, willing to work 7 days a week?

I was once a part-time sales guy for a landscape company here in town. We hired Hispanics mostly because NO ONE ELSE would come to work. We tried ads in local papers, ads in landscaper magazines.

Here's what we got:

1) Older whites and sometimes younger whites, with a GED willing to be drivers. A necessary component as they have a legit driver's license. Result? They lasted between 4-7 months. They couldn't take the stress of sitting in the truck for the most part, watching Hispanics do all the work....musta run out of cigarettes me thinks....some worked but, all were gone, by their own power, within 5-6 months....period. Pay? 30-40K a year with bonuses.....and they just couldn't manage it....

2) Blacks: Never called, never applied. We had one call but, I'm guessing that when he did not show up, it was simply him using the call to say he applied for a job for his unemployment. Hey, you have to show 3-5 a week.

3) Mexicans, South Americans. Hard on the language but, worked whenever asked for however long they were asked. Came with a SSN they got from a check cashing place off Holcomb Bridge Road/HWY 9. Most lived in the apartments on the corner of Holcomb Bridge and 400. And nooooooooooooooo one from INS ever even drove through....Roswell police looked the other way. They were cheerful, usually sang during some of the work and were treated very, very well with daily bonuses for those that really shined. You just can't beat this workforce.

Why? Because they fill the jobs that unemployed "proud" americans won't take. Period. And all that BS about they work for peanuts is just that, bs. They were paid $9/hour to $10/hour to start with the chance at bonuses driving their wage up to $15/hour. Not great but, a better than MINIMUM WAGE JOB. There are unemployed Americans who could take these jobs right now. But, they won't. Why work that hard...right?

We did an enormous amount of cleanup for residential and commercial. Real hard, ass busting work most would be allergic to. And believe me, it was brutally hard work. When Saturday evening rolled around, they asked if there was work.....for Sunday......be honest, how many of YOU are willing to do that? For ANY price?

So, they come here because they take the jobs americans don't want. Do they take manufacturing and assembly, food processing and other jobs? Sure. Why? Because they typically don't sue the employer, work their asses off, don't complain and will work any shift. Some want them gone so they can go back to the "plant", compile sick days into vacation and sue at the drop of a hat.

All that aside, I would like to see them go too. Why? Because we don't REGULATE the labor well. Read a few of my excerpts in other blogs. You will see that charging them 5K for an entrance fee (they pay coyotes 2k today) would go a LONG way towards documenting them for TEMPORARY work status, the shots they need to be safe, and the TAXES we need to support them.

How? Simple. Give them a temporary work card (say, 5 million or so a year). Anywhere they go, they will be subject to a 10-20% "municipality" tax. That goes to pay for the hospitals and schools they use. Then, charge normal income taxes to include SS. Difference being is that they won't get SS. Ever. It will be used to help shore ours up. Look at it as a luxury tax. On labor. The luxury of roaming the US working and not being under constant danger of starvation in their country.

Why? Because we can. If you don't like it, leave. Smart money says they will be at the turnstyles in record numbers. Why? Because there is nothing better. If there was, they would be there.

Solution: Charge them to get in. Use a PORTION of that money for DNA samples, fingerprints, retinal scans, documentation fees, healthcare checkup and shots, and voila, funds itself. They end up taking the jobs those "proud americans" won't take and YOU know it. BUT, they are NOT granted citizenship they are here TEMPORARILY, and if they drop a kid here, doesn't count. Sorry. That's just one more ticket THEY have to buy to haul them back. And if they so much as break ranks j-walking (facetious) send them back. Do not pass go, do NOT collect anything. Work visa revoked. Permanently. Message: Do NOT F up this privilege. For if you do, you will castigate yourself to South of the Border Status...permanently.

Cruel? No. This is humane. They are treated much worse there and are in a much more dangerous state. Here they would get a fair wage, be able to rent (no more than 4 to a dwelling for a change...ahem) and work peacefully.

How to make it work....

Penalize ANY employer who uses illegals out of this process and I mean, MAKE it hurt. I mean, really, really make it hurt. It WILL open up jobs to Americans as some will run for the border...literally. Catch and release all those that do NOT fall under this system. Stop and search endorsed through all 50 states.

And here's the best part, it's LEGAL! Why, because they are NOT citizens!

It's that or, you out there, those without a job...raise your hands to apply for a job to work your assets off....$10/hour to start, 50-60 hours a week. Be prepared to lose weight. Fast! That and the ability to drink a good 2 gallons of water a day when busy.....interested? Raise your hands......c'mon now, raise your hands......

Didn't think so.....until THAT day, be prepared for more of the same. They are going to come illegally and take certain jobs because the ones in America that should probably take those jobs....don't. Big business likes them not because they are cheap. They like them because they are reliable and work very, very, very, very hard. Much like our ancestors did.

It's the 800lb gorilla in the room no politician dare talk about. It's a logical way to control the labor. Seal the border, issue the permits, manage the labor pool. No need to grant amnesty. Big need to get rid of those that do not qualify or are not needed. Tough love.

You could get back to using MORE of their oil creating MORE jobs over there but.....I digress....I guess we like getting rammed by the middle-east and not enhancing the lives of our tentative allies South? Tequila is doing phenomenal. Why not Mexican oil? They seem to make cars (improving), shotguns (Mossberg Maverick Models), and other products.....soooooooo, why not REALLY tap their oil....

Short of doing something remotely close to this, NOTHING will change. No, scratch that. Your President and Pelosi and other Dem's will let them in for votes. Much like Regan did in the 80's. It was a mistake then, a bigger (by all measures) mistake now....manage them....don't legalize them.

Hey.....keepin' it reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeal........
 
Old 05-21-2013, 01:04 PM
 
Location: Mexico City, formerly Columbus, Ohio
12,766 posts, read 12,744,983 times
Reputation: 5440
So wait, Caleb, you're saying they work extremely hard, but it's in the best interest of the US to get rid of most of them? I would think somewhere in there you might want to provide some kind of path to citizenship as I would think having an influx of productive people is actually kind of a positive.

But no, I guess punishment and putting them in their place with a half-*ssed work program is better.

The Mexican economy is growing faster than the US'. So is the middle class. That will eventually solve a lot of the illegal issue and then you'll probably be rolling out the incentives to get more of them to come back.
 
Old 05-21-2013, 01:11 PM
 
Location: California
2,477 posts, read 1,711,425 times
Reputation: 299
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbcmh81 View Post
Further, maybe you should stop blaming others for not having the education and drive to be in a position in life where you don't have to compete for jobs with people who don't even speak the language. That reflects FAR more poorly on you than it does them.
Such a pompous statement, especially when menial jobs, i.e. fast food, hotel, etc, requires one to speak Spanish to even be eligible to work (in the US), which was an entry level position for many high school and college kids and some seniors who now have to compete with people who can't even speak the local language.
 
Old 05-21-2013, 01:12 PM
 
31,476 posts, read 14,565,596 times
Reputation: 8351
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caleb Longstreet View Post
The only reason the numbers are "down" is because of the economy. Period. No aggressive tactics could begin to slow the herd once this economy picks up. It just can't. They don't come here to take in the view. They come here to work.

Relative to their economy, a peso is worth what? 1/12th of a dollar, give or take? Said another way, if they make $100-$150 per day working, they are making (in their minds) roughly $1,000-$1,500 in the same time that it took to make $100-$150 in their country.....relatively speaking.

And you wonder why they come here with a smile, willing to work 7 days a week?

I was once a part-time sales guy for a landscape company here in town. We hired Hispanics mostly because NO ONE ELSE would come to work. We tried ads in local papers, ads in landscaper magazines.

Here's what we got:

1) Older whites and sometimes younger whites, with a GED willing to be drivers. A necessary component as they have a legit driver's license. Result? They lasted between 4-7 months. They couldn't take the stress of sitting in the truck for the most part, watching Hispanics do all the work....musta run out of cigarettes me thinks....some worked but, all were gone, by their own power, within 5-6 months....period. Pay? 30-40K a year with bonuses.....and they just couldn't manage it....

2) Blacks: Never called, never applied. We had one call but, I'm guessing that when he did not show up, it was simply him using the call to say he applied for a job for his unemployment. Hey, you have to show 3-5 a week.

3) Mexicans, South Americans. Hard on the language but, worked whenever asked for however long they were asked. Came with a SSN they got from a check cashing place off Holcomb Bridge Road/HWY 9. Most lived in the apartments on the corner of Holcomb Bridge and 400. And nooooooooooooooo one from INS ever even drove through....Roswell police looked the other way. They were cheerful, usually sang during some of the work and were treated very, very well with daily bonuses for those that really shined. You just can't beat this workforce.

Why? Because they fill the jobs that unemployed "proud" americans won't take. Period. And all that BS about they work for peanuts is just that, bs. They were paid $9/hour to $10/hour to start with the chance at bonuses driving their wage up to $15/hour. Not great but, a better than MINIMUM WAGE JOB. There are unemployed Americans who could take these jobs right now. But, they won't. Why work that hard...right?

We did an enormous amount of cleanup for residential and commercial. Real hard, ass busting work most would be allergic to. And believe me, it was brutally hard work. When Saturday evening rolled around, they asked if there was work.....for Sunday......be honest, how many of YOU are willing to do that? For ANY price?

So, they come here because they take the jobs americans don't want. Do they take manufacturing and assembly, food processing and other jobs? Sure. Why? Because they typically don't sue the employer, work their asses off, don't complain and will work any shift. Some want them gone so they can go back to the "plant", compile sick days into vacation and sue at the drop of a hat.

All that aside, I would like to see them go too. Why? Because we don't REGULATE the labor well. Read a few of my excerpts in other blogs. You will see that charging them 5K for an entrance fee (they pay coyotes 2k today) would go a LONG way towards documenting them for TEMPORARY work status, the shots they need to be safe, and the TAXES we need to support them.

How? Simple. Give them a temporary work card (say, 5 million or so a year). Anywhere they go, they will be subject to a 10-20% "municipality" tax. That goes to pay for the hospitals and schools they use. Then, charge normal income taxes to include SS. Difference being is that they won't get SS. Ever. It will be used to help shore ours up. Look at it as a luxury tax. On labor. The luxury of roaming the US working and not being under constant danger of starvation in their country.

Why? Because we can. If you don't like it, leave. Smart money says they will be at the turnstyles in record numbers. Why? Because there is nothing better. If there was, they would be there.

Solution: Charge them to get in. Use a PORTION of that money for DNA samples, fingerprints, retinal scans, documentation fees, healthcare checkup and shots, and voila, funds itself. They end up taking the jobs those "proud americans" won't take and YOU know it. BUT, they are NOT granted citizenship they are here TEMPORARILY, and if they drop a kid here, doesn't count. Sorry. That's just one more ticket THEY have to buy to haul them back. And if they so much as break ranks j-walking (facetious) send them back. Do not pass go, do NOT collect anything. Work visa revoked. Permanently. Message: Do NOT F up this privilege. For if you do, you will castigate yourself to South of the Border Status...permanently.

Cruel? No. This is humane. They are treated much worse there and are in a much more dangerous state. Here they would get a fair wage, be able to rent (no more than 4 to a dwelling for a change...ahem) and work peacefully.

How to make it work....

Penalize ANY employer who uses illegals out of this process and I mean, MAKE it hurt. I mean, really, really make it hurt. It WILL open up jobs to Americans as some will run for the border...literally. Catch and release all those that do NOT fall under this system. Stop and search endorsed through all 50 states.

And here's the best part, it's LEGAL! Why, because they are NOT citizens!

It's that or, you out there, those without a job...raise your hands to apply for a job to work your assets off....$10/hour to start, 50-60 hours a week. Be prepared to lose weight. Fast! That and the ability to drink a good 2 gallons of water a day when busy.....interested? Raise your hands......c'mon now, raise your hands......

Didn't think so.....until THAT day, be prepared for more of the same. They are going to come illegally and take certain jobs because the ones in America that should probably take those jobs....don't. Big business likes them not because they are cheap. They like them because they are reliable and work very, very, very, very hard. Much like our ancestors did.

It's the 800lb gorilla in the room no politician dare talk about. It's a logical way to control the labor. Seal the border, issue the permits, manage the labor pool. No need to grant amnesty. Big need to get rid of those that do not qualify or are not needed. Tough love.

You could get back to using MORE of their oil creating MORE jobs over there but.....I digress....I guess we like getting rammed by the middle-east and not enhancing the lives of our tentative allies South? Tequila is doing phenomenal. Why not Mexican oil? They seem to make cars (improving), shotguns (Mossberg Maverick Models), and other products.....soooooooo, why not REALLY tap their oil....

Short of doing something remotely close to this, NOTHING will change. No, scratch that. Your President and Pelosi and other Dem's will let them in for votes. Much like Regan did in the 80's. It was a mistake then, a bigger (by all measures) mistake now....manage them....don't legalize them.

Hey.....keepin' it reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeal........
I don't know what's real in your neck of the woods but it is nonsense that illegals are only doing jobs that Americans won't do for a fair wage for the most part across this nation.
 
Old 05-21-2013, 01:15 PM
 
31,476 posts, read 14,565,596 times
Reputation: 8351
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquid Reigns View Post
Such a pompous statement, especially when menial jobs, i.e. fast food, hotel, etc, requires one to speak Spanish to even be eligible to work (in the US), which was an entry level position for many high school and college kids and some seniors who now have to compete with people who can't even speak the local language.
You know and I know that the only reason that illegals are being hired over Americans is because they work cheaper but the pro-illegals choose to belittle Americans for not speaking Spanish or calling them stupid or lazy instead. It is just one of their hateful tactics to defend illegals in our country.
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