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Old 11-22-2007, 04:46 PM
 
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Kele, enjoyed reading your extensive writings---here's a question: Given your background and training, what's your take on "Kennewick Man"? (for those who 'just tuned in', Kennewick Man was the name given a mysterous human skeleton found a few years back in a Columbia River gravel bar in SE Washington State (Tri-Cities area)--he was apparently about 9,000 years old and from all appearances seems to be Caucasian (!) )

I know he's the subject of a big lawsuit between scientists who wish to "study" him, and local Indian tribes. Any insight you can give us on this, Kele?....

Thanks for your input....
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Old 11-22-2007, 07:41 PM
 
Location: San Diego North County
4,800 posts, read 7,687,743 times
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Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
Kele, enjoyed reading your extensive writings---here's a question: Given your background and training, what's your take on "Kennewick Man"? (for those who 'just tuned in', Kennewick Man was the name given a mysterous human skeleton found a few years back in a Columbia River gravel bar in SE Washington State (Tri-Cities area)--he was apparently about 9,000 years old and from all appearances seems to be Caucasian (!) )

I know he's the subject of a big lawsuit between scientists who wish to "study" him, and local Indian tribes. Any insight you can give us on this, Kele?....

Thanks for your input....
Thanks Mac- here is what I know about Kennewick Man.

For all intents and purposes, anthropologists have been unable to determine the origin of the Kennewick Man. According to NAGPRA (The Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act of 1990) "a relationship of shared group identity which can be reasonably traced historically or prehistorically between a present day tribe or Native Hawaiian organization and an identifiable earlier group" is what defines cultural affiliation. Cultural affiliation requires that we establish an identifiable earlier group. With only one grave (burial) and no grave goods, it is impossible for archaeologists to indentify Kennewick's social group. This means that the Kennewick Man cannot meet the requirement of cultural affiliation under the law.

That said, people have lived in the Columbia Plateau for the past 13,000 years. The archaeological record of the Columbia Plateau shows tremendous cultural changes over time--in the style of projectile points and houses that were used, as well as burial rituals, and in economy and trade patterns. In fact, the archaeological records show no evidence of sedentary occupation of the region until 3,000 years ago--6,000 years after the Kennewick Man died. So, to make a long story short, archaeology cannot reasonably trace Kennewick's shared group identity over time.

Yet no matter how you measure it, Kennewick's skull looks more like southeast Asia, Polynesian, or the Japanese Ainu, not other Native Americans. For that reason alone, the presiding judge in the case declared that Kennewick was not Native American. Yet it is highly likely that Kennewich was indigenous, because it is likely that he was born and lived in the United States before another colonizing population arrived.

The skeletal remains also suggest some gene flow between Kennewick's population and later Native Americans. There are recently discovered burials in Baja California which suggest that Kennewick's biological population survived into the late Holocene.

The standing conclusion therefore at this time is that while Kennewick himself was not likely to be Native American Indian, his biological population did contribute, in places, to the larger Native American population. I have my doubts as to whether the Native Americans as we know them today, were the first homo sapien sapiens to set foot upon this continent. But that is just my opinion.
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Old 11-24-2007, 08:17 PM
 
Location: San Diego North County
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By the way, I forgot to add...

There are many Native Americans who believe that they are affiliated with any burial within their traditional territories, no matter the burial's age. In cases such as Kennewick man, Native American Indians feel betrayed--given that the purpose of the Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act was to allow the tribes to bury "their" dead.

Because most archaeologists (myself included) see NAGPRA as a way to do the right thing ethically, Kennewick and other cases like it will continue to challenge both archaeology and Native Americans alike.
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Old 11-24-2007, 08:24 PM
 
Location: The world, where will fate take me this time?
3,162 posts, read 10,295,946 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kele View Post
By the way, I forgot to add...

There are many Native Americans who believe that they are affiliated with any burial within their traditional territories, no matter the burial's age. In cases such as Kennewick man, Native American Indians feel betrayed--given that the purpose of the Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act was to allow the tribes to bury "their" dead.

Because most archaeologists (myself included) see NAGPRA as a way to do the right thing ethically, Kennewick and other cases like it will continue to challenge both archaeology and Native Americans alike.
Kele, I didn't know you knew that much of anthropology

have you ever heard about the great year? if you do what are your thoughts on that?
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Old 11-24-2007, 08:49 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,615,542 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kele View Post
By the way, I forgot to add...

There are many Native Americans who believe that they are affiliated with any burial within their traditional territories, no matter the burial's age. In cases such as Kennewick man, Native American Indians feel betrayed--given that the purpose of the Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act was to allow the tribes to bury "their" dead.

Because most archaeologists (myself included) see NAGPRA as a way to do the right thing ethically, Kennewick and other cases like it will continue to challenge both archaeology and Native Americans alike.
I can argue that both ways.

Respecting the dead vs. the knowledge gleaned to solve mysteries-------both legal as well as medical.
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Old 11-24-2007, 10:34 PM
 
Location: San Diego North County
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Originally Posted by Travelling fella View Post
Kele, I didn't know you knew that much of anthropology

have you ever heard about the great year? if you do what are your thoughts on that?
Do you mean the 25,800 year cycle that it takes the Earth's axis to complete one wobble, sway, or clockwise circle, also known as the precession of the equinoxes or the great year? It has something to do with the alignment of the stars with the Great Pyramid, the Sphinx at Giza, and other Egyptian monuments, correct?

I'm afraid astrology and astronomy really aren't within my realm of scholarship although I'm sure I could research the subject enough to have a reasonably intelligent discussion.

To AZB - the desire for knowledge and the need to respect the feelings of Native American Indians pose one of the greatest archaeological conundrums to the American archaeologist. However, NAGPRA is more often seen by the modern archaeologist as being human rights legislation rather than archaeological legislation. While it may, at times, tie our hands with regards to human remains, we strive for a balance with Native American Indian tribes and as more Native Americans become educated in the field of anthropology, it may help to create that balance between scholarship and the ethical return of Native American remains to their respective tribes.
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Old 11-25-2007, 06:45 AM
 
Location: The world, where will fate take me this time?
3,162 posts, read 10,295,946 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kele View Post
Do you mean the 25,800 year cycle that it takes the Earth's axis to complete one wobble, sway, or clockwise circle, also known as the precession of the equinoxes or the great year? It has something to do with the alignment of the stars with the Great Pyramid, the Sphinx at Giza, and other Egyptian monuments, correct?

I'm afraid astrology and astronomy really aren't within my realm of scholarship although I'm sure I could research the subject enough to have a reasonably intelligent discussion.
Nail on! you deserve good rep, even if you don't know that much you knew what was it about.

Do you like hinduism? hinduism speak about yugas or ages, there are 4 ages

I believe with the deepest faith of my soul that someday there will be no more illegal immigration, I thought that this could be interesting to read

btw before you start, this issue of illegal immigration gets tiresome sometimes, there is much knowledge to be shared besides that, but I'm glad this issue made us met, maybe it isn't something that bad

Yuga - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The traditional virtues accorded the highest value in the four epochs are:
  1. Satya Yuga or Krita Yuga: dhyana (meditation). In the highest yuga, the great majority of people can experience spirituality by direct intuitive realization of truth. The veil between the material and the transcendent realms becomes almost transparent. According to Natya Shastra, there are no Natya performances in the Krita Yuga because it is a period free from any kind of unhappiness or misery. Satya Yuga is also called the Golden Age.
  2. Treta Yuga: yajna (sacrifice). Treta Yuga is the mental age. Mental power is harnessed and men are in power, there are inventions that dissolve the illusion of time (inventions are characteristic of both Dvapara and Treta yugas.) Clairvoyance and telepathy are common knowledge.
  3. Dvapara Yuga: archana (worship). In Dvapara Yuga, science flourishes, people experience the spiritual in terms of subtle energies and rational choices, inventions are abundant, particularly those that dissolve the illusion of distance (between people and between things), and power is mostly in the hands of women. The end of this age (in the descending phase) is associated with the death of Krishna, and the events described in the Mahabharata.
  4. Kali Yuga: daana (alms). In the lowest epoch, Kali Yuga, most people are aware only of the physical aspects of existence, the predominant emphasis of living is material survival, and power is mostly in the hands of men. Men have no knowledge of electricity, magnetism or subtle forces of nature. People's relationship with the spiritual is governed predominantly by superstition and by authority.
Temples, wars, and writing are hallmarks of Dvapara and Kali yugas. In the higher ages (Treta and Satya), writing is unnecessary because people communicate directly by thought; temples are unnecessary because people feel the omnipresence of God; wars are rare but they do occur - one such war is described in the Ramayana.

Sri Yukteswar explains that just as the cycle of day and night is caused by a celestial motion (the earth spinning on its axis in relation to the sun), and just as the cycle of the seasons are caused by a celestial motion (the earth with tilted axis orbiting the sun) so too is the yuga cycle (seen as the precession of the equinox), caused by a celestial motion. He explains this celestial motion is the movement of the whole solar system around another star. As our sun moves through this orbit it takes the solar system (and earth) closer to and then further from a point in space known as the "grand centre" also called 'Vishnunabhi', which is the seat of the creative power, 'Brahma', [which]...regulates...the mental virtue of the internal world." He implies that it is the proximity of the earth and sun to this grand centre that determines which season of man or yuga it is.
Astronomers recognize that most stars orbit one or more companion stars. Many now believe our sister sun is Sirius, a nearby binary system comprised of a star in binary orbit around a white dwarf (a collapsed sun).

Sri Yukteswar's teachings on the yugas

An alternative view of the yuga cycle and timescale was taught by the 19th/20th-century Indian yogi Swami Sri Yukteswar Giri, guru of Paramahansa Yogananda.
In his book, The Holy Science, Sri Yukteswar explains that the descending phase of Satya Yuga lasts 4800 years, Treta Yuga 3600 years, Dwapara Yuga 2400 years, and Kali Yuga 1200 years. The ascending phase of Kali Yuga then begins, also lasting 1200 years; and so on. The ascending phase of Kali Yuga began in September of 499 AD. Since September 1699, we have been in the ascending phase of Dwapara Yuga, according to Sri Yukteswar.
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Old 11-26-2007, 08:32 AM
 
Location: San Diego North County
4,800 posts, read 7,687,743 times
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Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
I can argue that both ways.

Respecting the dead vs. the knowledge gleaned to solve mysteries-------both legal as well as medical.
Hey AZ - this morning in one of my Anthro classes we'll be discussing with several visiting American archaeologists, the issue of NAGPRA, how it relates to the Kennewick man, and the issue of taking sides. I'll let you know how that turns out. Macmeal might be interested as well.
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Old 11-26-2007, 05:12 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,615,542 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kele View Post
Hey AZ - this morning in one of my Anthro classes we'll be discussing with several visiting American archaeologists, the issue of NAGPRA, how it relates to the Kennewick man, and the issue of taking sides. I'll let you know how that turns out. Macmeal might be interested as well.
Thank you

Side note here:

Not many people realize this; but, many 'full blood' 'White' Scandinavians are up to 50% Asian lineage, genetically speaking.

I am just thinking about the irony that Mestizo Hispanics are closer genetically to the above ethnic groups than they are to Spaniards from Spain--------the latter are more closely related to English, Irish, Scots and the Welch!
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Old 12-06-2007, 04:42 AM
 
Location: The world, where will fate take me this time?
3,162 posts, read 10,295,946 times
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Kele, I was going to DM you, but I thought it was better to ask you here, because people in the forum like your views on anthropology.

Which is your favorite civilization and why?

My spirit salutes yours!

Love and Light!

Last edited by Travelling fella; 12-06-2007 at 04:52 AM..
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