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Old 06-17-2013, 08:58 AM
 
Location: NY
12,263 posts, read 9,028,787 times
Reputation: 8020

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Quote:
Originally Posted by bUU View Post
Your comment is non-sequitur. You probably wanted to present data showing some high percentage of illegals don't work. I don't know if that is or isn't the case (it probably isn't true, which is unfortunate for the point you were trying to make), but it isn't what those statistics you referred to say. Those statistics could simply indicate that illegal immigrants are simply doing all the crap work that pays so little that there is no way to survive on such low levels of income. That could benefit our economy by keeping food on our tables without having to pay living wages to the folks working the fields. The only losers in that scenario are those folks who are paid slave wages for their work, and those who cannot get living wage jobs doing that work, because that work is given to folks who are willing to work for slave wages instead.
You do understand what a non-sequitur is, right? I wasn't even making an argument, I presented some NYS stats and made a comment - I just checked out stats for New York and discovered 61% of illegals here are on welfare. Makes you wonder why we are constantly being told that illegal aliens are a benefit to our economy.

I was actually astonished to realize 61% of illegals were on welfare here in NYS, and since I used NYS 2011 stats, it's probably higher in 2013. I have no idea how many work or don't work. Are they blood-sucking parasites on the taxpayer? It's hard not to think yes after a little research.

You can rant about slave wages, but, no one asked them to come here. And their impact on various parts of the economic system here have been profound. Take a real life anecdote from tree service companies in the area. Before the arrival of the illegals, tree services were routinely charging between $500-$1500 to prune or remove a tree. The tree crew paid taxes and social security. Illegal crews came in and charge $80 to prune a tree and $300 to remove a tree. Everything is cash and the monies are handed out by the foreman at the end of the workday. No taxes or social security are paid. Are they on welfare? Very likely, as they aren't showing any income.

Regular tree services can't compete. They have fixed overhead costs and start laying off their employees who go on unemployment, a further drag on the system. This is happening to all gardening services, contractors and homebuilders, auto mechanics and a variety of other jobs along one economic sector...I know the NYT and the WSJ like to claim that undocumented workers do not compete with skilled laborers, instead, they complement them. But just talk to owners of companies competing with the low-wage illegals and see how they feel about that as they lay off their own people.
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Old 06-17-2013, 09:27 AM
bUU
 
Location: Georgia
11,695 posts, read 8,198,453 times
Reputation: 8011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockside View Post
You do understand what a non-sequitur is, right? I wasn't even making an argument, I presented some NYS stats and made a comment -[i] I just checked out stats for New York and discovered 61% of illegals here are on welfare.
The non-sequitur comment you made was, "Makes you wonder why we are constantly being told that illegal aliens are a benefit to our economy." As I explained, it does not relate to the data you presented, which was about the percentage of poor illegal immigrants. I very clearly outlined how those on welfare very well could be benefiting the economy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockside View Post
I was actually astonished to realize 61% of illegals were on welfare here in NYS, and since I used NYS 2011 stats, it's probably higher in 2013. I have no idea how many work or don't work. Are they blood-sucking parasites on the taxpayer? It's hard not to think yes after a little research.
Do the research first, then "think yes". Add up how much illegal immigrants are paid for work, and then add in the value of public assistance, and I suspect it is still less than the average American spends just on housing. That difference, between how much their compensation plus public assistance is worth, and a living wage, is the amount of money each illegal immigrant is literally contributing to the economy, over and above that of a citizen doing the same work, earning a living wage and therefore not eligible for public assistance. If these people were just reading palms or doing some other activity that doesn't really contribute anything to society, perhaps you'd have a point, but many of them are involved in farming, picking fruit, planting crops, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockside View Post
You can rant about slave wages, but, no one asked them to come here.
You missed the point: It isn't about their making slave wages... it is about the difference between them making slave wages and some American citizen making a living wage sufficient to stay off of welfare, themselves, and how that difference affects the US economy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockside View Post
Regular tree services can't compete. They have fixed overhead costs and start laying off their employees who go on unemployment, a further drag on the system. This is happening to all gardening services, contractors and homebuilders, auto mechanics and a variety of other jobs along one economic sector...
So why don't we put in place stringent enforcement of laws that ensure that all work done is done by citizens, paid a living wage, so that they don't need to be on public assistance themselves?
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Old 06-17-2013, 09:44 AM
 
Location: NY
12,263 posts, read 9,028,787 times
Reputation: 8020
Quote:
Originally Posted by T-310 View Post
In short, you make pompous statements then don't back them up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bUU View Post
I very clearly outlined how those on welfare very well could be benefiting the economy.
I have to agree with T-310. In case I missed something I went back and checked out all your comments in this thread, and while I see a lot of rhetoric, you didn't prove or offer any proof of your above comment, and the only thing I see you clearly outlining is your complete and utter disdain for anyone who doesn't think like you.
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Old 06-17-2013, 09:46 AM
bUU
 
Location: Georgia
11,695 posts, read 8,198,453 times
Reputation: 8011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockside View Post
I have to agree with T-310.
Shocker! You "have to" agree with someone who shares your own personal bias. Imagine that!
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Old 06-17-2013, 10:20 AM
 
Location: The land where cats rule
10,946 posts, read 7,996,982 times
Reputation: 3602
Quote:
Originally Posted by bUU View Post
Shocker! You "have to" agree with someone who shares your own personal bias. Imagine that!
Talk about a shocker! You continue to bloviate and avoid providing proof or even actual backup for your bigoted statements.

In point of fact (back to the topic) Boxer is only following her own political agenda. She wants to allow any and all illegals into the states and have the citizens pay for them. She thinks it will increase the political base for liberals such as she.

She cares nothing for her own country, only about holding onto/gaining more power to tell people what to do.

I used to liver in California, in her district. I voted against her every time I could. I wound up leaving the state when I realized she had conned enough people to get reelected time and again.

With representation such as Boxer, Feinstein and Pelosi that state is truly doomed.
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Old 06-17-2013, 10:39 AM
 
Location: Swiftwater, PA
13,275 posts, read 10,660,890 times
Reputation: 9474
bUU,

You can fight every argument I make. But; it boils down to allowing people into our Country that have no background checks and broke many laws to get here. Not every illegal immigrant is exploited. Some belong to the cartels, some were felons in their native countries, some MS13 and other gangs, some have forged documents or stolen ID. Some of their children have learned from the example set by their parents – to win at all cost. Is that the America that you want?

The people hurt most by amnesty will be our legal immigrants and minorities (which are already struggling). If we truly need more foreign workers; we have the tools to do so – we pass out visa's and green cards like candy.

We currently have thousands of troops fighting abroad. What is the sense of fighting any war if we have Senator Boxer's open borders? The countries that are sending us these illegal immigrants have much stricter rules than our Country. We have legally welcomed millions over the years. And we will continue to do so for many years to come.

PS I am a registered Independent. I believe that there should be only one goal for our politicians and that is what is best for the legal and naturalized citizens of our country. That does not mean that I want our tax dollars paying the bill for those that never came here legally. Let me chose my own charity!
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Old 06-17-2013, 10:53 AM
bUU
 
Location: Georgia
11,695 posts, read 8,198,453 times
Reputation: 8011
Quote:
Originally Posted by fisheye View Post
You can fight every argument I make. But; it boils down to allowing people into our Country that have no background checks and broke many laws to get here.
Something I object to, so you have to ask yourself wtf are you arguing against?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fisheye View Post
Not every illegal immigrant is exploited.
This being the first admission by you in this thread that some are. Now if you want to present data showing just how many illegal immigrants get paid a living wage versus those who aren't, we can begin to move the conversation forward. If you just want to assume whatever it is supports your prejudicial comments, then the conversation remains firms stuck in the partisan mud.
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Old 06-17-2013, 11:45 AM
 
Location: Swiftwater, PA
13,275 posts, read 10,660,890 times
Reputation: 9474
bUU,

Perhaps you are not reading me right? I am non-partisan. All I want to do is keep my money in my pocket. Is that partisan? I would almost guarantee you that I have worked much harder and longer than many of those you champion. I paid my dues and played by the rules.

Perhaps you would want to make a list of demands? Tell us what you really want. Don't beat around the bush and give us disinformation – get to the point. Are you from California? Do you support Senator Boxer and all of her legislation? Are you a registered Democrat?

PS I have to leave for work. I'll get back when I return – somebody has to pay the bills!
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Old 06-17-2013, 11:54 AM
bUU
 
Location: Georgia
11,695 posts, read 8,198,453 times
Reputation: 8011
Quote:
Originally Posted by fisheye View Post
Perhaps you are not reading me right? I am non-partisan.
OOoo let me try: So am I.

After all, I disagree with Senator Boxer on immigration. That's got to qualify me as non-partisan - right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fisheye View Post
All I want to do is keep my money in my pocket. Is that partisan?
The fact that you're asking seems to indicate that you don't realize that it is the epitome of a partisan position. The adjective means specifically "inclined to favor one side over another". You favor an anti-taxation perspective. Good for you. That puts you on the other side of the issue from Senator Boxer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fisheye View Post
I would almost guarantee you that I have worked much harder and longer than many of those you champion.
There is no more pointless statement one can make in a discussion thread, except perhaps, "I'm smarter than you," or "I'm correct-er than you." You need to make your points without claiming primacy you cannot definitely prove, or accept having your claims dismissed out of hand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fisheye View Post
Do you support Senator Boxer and all of her legislation?
I think I've already said three times in this thread that I disagree with Senator Boxer on immigration. So clearly you're not reading, you're just reacting, or emoting, or whatever it is your doing other than participating in the discussion.

Since you seem to have lost the music, I'll remind you. You wrote, "Both political parties are ignoring the legal and legalized citizens of our Country. We used to hear about our homeless. We used to hear about our working poor. Today we only here about those poor people that only broke, at least, several of our laws." I replied with a link to Glenda Bell's story, as evidence that we hear about poor people who have broken no laws, but rather have shown incredible generosity of spirit, and a strong work ethic, yet still have be short-changed economically by our unfair society.

You could have just replied, "Okay, I guess we do hear about poor people who haven't broken any laws."
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Old 06-18-2013, 05:23 AM
 
16,438 posts, read 18,564,117 times
Reputation: 9494
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seeker5in1 View Post
We could even pack them a box lunch.
And a thoughful going away card with a small but tasteful bouquet of flowers.
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