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Old 11-07-2007, 08:39 AM
 
Location: SE Arizona - FINALLY! :D
18,946 posts, read 21,929,906 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andreabeth View Post
If the illegals we have here in the US represent the 'cream of the crop' of their home countries, than the situation south of the border is truly beyond hope.
Yes they do.

You take the small percentage of illegal aliens who are criminals and paint the entire group with that stigma. There are always criminals who've come in with any demographic wave. The Irish brought their's, the Italians brought theirs (a little organization called the Mafia - maybe you've heard of them). Are you claiming that all Americans of Italian descent are members of the mob? That's essentially what you are doing with your statement above. You are making the same mistake folks did during earlier waves of immigration. Back then locals wanted to round up and throw out all those Italians, Irish etc and send them back where they came from too - but that didn't happen, the immigrants stayed, and somehow America went on to not only survive but to prosper - thanks to a large degree to the efforts of the newcomers.

The list of famous and success immigrants to America is huge and include such familiar names as Bob Hope, Albert Einstein, Henry Kissenger, Arnold Schwarzenegger, John Muir, Joseph Pulitzer, Irving Berlin, Gloria Estefan, and Levi Strauss. In fact whole industries have been started by immigrants. The motion picture industry (and all the millions of US jobs it provides) wouldn't exist if not for the ambitions of immigrants such as Louis B. Mayer and Samual Goldwyn.

While I think that immigration controls are needed, the types of folks coming in are likely no worse (overall) than in previous immigration waves - meaning that they are in general hard-working and ambitious, so who knows what kind of achievements and contributions they are likely to make in the long run.

Ken

Last edited by LordBalfor; 11-07-2007 at 09:17 AM..
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Old 11-07-2007, 09:20 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LordBalfor View Post
Yes they do.

You take the small percentage of illegal aliens who are criminals and paint the entire group with that stigma. There are always criminals who've come in with any demographic wave. The Irish brought their's, the Italians brought theirs (a little organization called the Mafia - maybe you've heard of them). Are you claiming that all Americans of Italian descent are members of the mob? That's essentially what you are doing with your statement above. You are making the same mistake folks did during earlier waves of immigration. Back then locals wanted to round up and throw out all those Italians, Irish etc and send them back where they came from too - but that didn't happen, the immigrants stayed, and somehow America went on to not only survive but to prosper - thanks to a large degree to the efforts of the newcomers.
Oh no, your Majesty. This is your post I was responding to:
Quote:
Originally Posted by LordBalfor View Post
In my experience immigrants (both legal and illegal) tend to be smarter, more ambitious, and much harder-working than your average American. Those folks who are unambitious and lazy generally stay home.
Show me where I said anything about 'criminals'. Criminal illegal aliens are another issue entirely.
First of all, let's separate LEGAL immigrants from ILLEGAL immigrants because the two groups represent entirely different subsets of the population. LEGAL immigrants are people who have complied with US immigration law and come here the right way. They have filed the required paperwork, undergone the health screenings, etc. and I think it is fair to say that many are well educated and will benefit US society. No one argues against LEGAL immigrants. You are free to name call all you want (let's see what have we got so far?- Nazis, racist, KKK, fat, lazy) it does not change the fact that the overwhelming majority of people here do not have a problem with legal immigration.
I, and others on the forum, do have a problem with ILLEGAL immigrants.

Here are two of the many reasons why.
1. During the Great Wave of immigration early in the 20th century, the population of the US was less than 1/3 of what it is now. 1900=76 million, now we have around 300 million people. In 1900, there was a need to increase our population numbers. Today there is not. IMO, the US is at full capacity and we simply cannot continue to add tens of millions more people without serious resource depletion and a diminished quality of life.
2. Illegal immigrants are overwhelmingly impoverished and poorly educated. Many have not even completed HS. During immigrations heyday of in the late 19th-early 20th centuries, having an education was not crucial to succeeding in the US. At that time, decent paying jobs were available in mills and factories. The only requirement was a strong back and a willingness to work. It did not matter if you had not completed HS. This is what lifted so many immigrant families out of poverty and into the middle class. These jobs are no longer here and they will not be back. What is happening with illegal immgration now is that there are millions of uneducated, unskilled people in the US who will never move out of poverty. Yes, some will. The majority won't. By allowing illegal immigration to continue we are importing a new underclass.
Quote:
The list of famous and success immigrants to America is huge and include such familiar names as Bob Hope, Albert Einstein, Henry Kissenger, Arnold Schwarzenegger, John Muir, Joseph Pulitzer, Irving Berlin, Gloria Estefan, and Levi Strauss. In fact whole industries have been started by immigrants. The motion picture industry (and all the millions of US jobs it provides) wouldn't exist if not for the ambitions of immigrants such as Louis B. Mayer and Samual Goldwyn.
I bet every last one of these people came here legally.

Quote:
While I think, that immigration controls are needed, the types of folks coming in are likely no worse (overall) than in previous immigration waves - meaning that they are in general hard-working and ambitious, so who knows what kind of achievements and contributions they are likely to make in the long run.

Ken
You just keep on waiting for those achievements and contributions to society.

Quote:
An Immigration and Naturalization Service study found that after ten years in the United States, the average amnestied illegal alien had only a seventh grade education and an annual salary of less than $9,000 a year.1/
1. Report on the Legalized Alien Population, Immigration and Naturalization Service, M-375, March 1992.
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Old 11-07-2007, 09:37 AM
 
Location: San Diego North County
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LordBalfor View Post
Absolutely I came from immigrant stock. In fact my father was the first of his line born here and my mother immigrated from Britain back in the early 50's - so yeah, I understand very well the type of people who are drawn to the USA, probably FAR better than you do. America's greatest strength is in fact it's immigrants, and always has been. Immigrating to ANY new location, whether be a different country or simply a different state can be a scary and risky proposition because you are leaving behind the security of everything and everyone you know. Timid, unabitious folks don't do that. No matter how bad it may be at home, they stay there and put up with it. It's those folks with drive and ambition that pack up and move to a new place to seek better opportunities. Such people people tend to be far more ambitious than those that are born and raised right here at home - if they hadn't been, they would have stayed home.

Far too many Americans have grown fat and lazy - secure in the knowledge that they live in the richest, most powerful country on earth. Immigrants are not only willing to take cheaper pay, they work harder than your typical home-grown American - simply because they have the drive to succeed.

You need to read my post again as you don't seem to understand what I've said. My very contention is that it's ALL those different folk - but especially the new immigrants - who make America what is it.

Ken
New immigrants did NOT make this country what it is. Immigrants of my grandparent's generation--parents of the Greatest Generation, made this country what it is.

According to Stephen McNamee and Robert K. Miller, Jr., authors of "The Meritocracy Myth," 49.7% of America's wealth is spread out amongst 1/5 of its population.

The remaining 4/5 of us are working our a**es off to survive.

Your blatant denial of the American work ethic and attitude of derision towards Americans in general, devalues any judgement you might have to offer.
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Old 11-07-2007, 09:42 AM
 
Location: SE Arizona - FINALLY! :D
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kele View Post
New immigrants did NOT make this country what it is. Immigrants of my grandparent's generation--parents of the Greatest Generation, made this country what it is.
That's right - IMMIGRANTS made this country what it is. Your own words.
And people thought little of them at the time too.

Ken
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Old 11-07-2007, 09:47 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LordBalfor View Post
That's right - IMMIGRANTS made this country what it is. Your own words.
And people thought little of them at the time too.

Ken
You need to differentiate legal from illegal immigrants. The two groups differ in very significant ways, not the least of which is that one is in compliance with the law while the other is not.
The immigrants who made this country what is today came here legally. They were in compliance with the laws at that time.
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Old 11-07-2007, 01:11 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LordBalfor View Post
That's right - IMMIGRANTS made this country what it is.
I'm so sick of this tired old line.

Everyone made this country what it is, native born and immigrants alike.

The word "immigrant" describes a person's place of birth. It says nothing of his character. "Immigrant" is not a class of people. An immigrant can be completely uneducated or possess multiple doctorates; can be honest or a cheat; can be a hard worker or lazy; sane or crazy. That someone is an immigrant does not make him special. That past immigrants have served to populate a sparsely populated nation does not mean we need more immigrants today. That Chinese built the railroads does not mean we need Mexicans to hang drywall.

Thomas Jefferson and James Madison, et. al., made this country what it is. Neither were immigrants.
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Old 11-07-2007, 01:19 PM
 
Location: SE Arizona - FINALLY! :D
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nvxplorer View Post
Everyone made this country what it is, native born and immigrants alike
Granted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nvxplorer View Post
Thomas Jefferson and James Madison, et. al., made this country what it is.
No, they made a country that tolerated institutionalized slavery and denied the vote to women. Progressive for their time but still a product of that time. They set a great foundation - best the world had ever seen - but it was everyone who came later (either by birth or by immigration) that made America what it is.

Ken
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Old 11-07-2007, 01:31 PM
 
1,861 posts, read 2,967,216 times
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Our forefathers made this country what it is today, not all the immigrants, including my own ancestors who came in the 1600's.

And, even if we are a "land of immigrants" (which I guess every country is, except Africa if you believe in evolution), it doesn't mean that people should come here illegally - there are legal ways. We are the most welcoming country on the globe, and we take in more immigrants than anyone else. Why should we put up with lawbreakers and, in fact, reward them?
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Old 11-07-2007, 01:58 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LordBalfor View Post
Granted.
Good. I'd like to dispel with the tired buzzwords and catch-phrases.



Quote:
No, they made a country that tolerated institutionalized slavery and denied the vote to women. Progressive for their time but still a product of that time. They set a great foundation - best the world had ever seen - but it was everyone who came later (either by birth or by immigration) that made America what it is.
The bold is what I was referring to. Without this foundation, the US would be drastically different.
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Old 11-07-2007, 02:48 PM
 
Location: San Diego North County
4,800 posts, read 7,686,811 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LordBalfor View Post
That's right - IMMIGRANTS made this country what it is. Your own words.
And people thought little of them at the time too.

Ken
Geez, you just can't get past that tired old trope of yours. You seem to believe that today's illegal immigrants contribute on the same scale as those of the past. As I've stated previously (and you obviously failed to grasp) unless a person is 100% Native American Indian, then immigrant stock must be in their ancestry somewhere down the line.

This country was great long before the current invasion of illegal immigrants. Mexico is dumping its poor and uneducated into the United States in greater numbers than any other country simply by virtue of their proximity to our southern border. Unlike immigration waves of the past, we are not receiving many of the best and the brightest from various countries, the explorers and the innovators--we are receiving the flotsam and jetsam that Mexico's corrupt government cannot be bothered to assist. The first generations of immigrants didn't come here to dump their anchor babies, bleed social services dry and send billions of illegally earned dollars to their home countries every year. They came to be Americans. They came to work hard and to raise their children in the greatest country on Earth. They came to contribute to this land and when called upon, they sent their children off to die in defense of this country.

How dare you even compare people who flagrantly and blatantly disregard sovereign U.S. law to come to this country at the expense of her own citizens to the immigrants who built this country?
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