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Old 07-14-2013, 08:09 AM
 
31,509 posts, read 14,580,770 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chimuelojones View Post
it's not knowing where they are...it is the logistics of moving whatever million people out.

Please take a minute to think of all the manpower and resources needed to do that...Please.
Even Homeland Security has said it is cheaper to deport them than to allow them to remain here. Take a minute and think about what this proposed amnesty will cost us in manpower, tax dollars, etc. Amnesties only encourage more illegal immigration. When does it end?

The cheapest route would be to remove all the incentives for them to remain here such and jobs, benefits and birthright citizenship. Many if not most would self-deport.
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Old 07-14-2013, 08:11 AM
 
Location: The land where cats rule
10,946 posts, read 7,979,077 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IBMMuseum View Post
My comment went completely over your head. Births within the boundaries of the United States do not receive U.S. citizenship by their parent(s). You're making a mockery of how U.S. citizenship is natively acquired by not understanding the process.
And yet you oppose removal of illegals or even the discouraging of them coming here.

Here is a fact that you seem to refuse to recognize:

No illegal parents here, no anchor children.

See how simply that works? But of course, that is not what you want, you want illegals to have superior rights to those of citizens.
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Old 07-14-2013, 10:45 AM
 
Location: Jacurutu
5,302 posts, read 4,012,769 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
You are making claims that you know the exact numbers, but you can read up and see that some estimate 2/3 of illegals are men and you are claiming that the fathers of the anchor babies are US citizens but have never once provided a legitimate source for this weird claim...
Why do you try so hard to misquote me? I am sourcing the Pew Hispanic Center stating that it is more likely for an illegal alien parent to have a partner that is either a U.S. citizen or Legal Permanent Resident. You still haven't read the complete report where the 8% number you quoted came from?

Listen carefully: It's not my claim...

But I can understand attacking the messenger when you are unfamiliar with how sourcing works...

Saying "some estimate" is worthless without sourcing exactly who that is. Why miss my source, and repeat time and time again that the claims are mine, when you fail to source entirely? I can well understand why you misrepresent all of the declarations you make, when I see a failure to even follow the responses that I have made here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
I very seriously doubt your claim that the fathers are US citizens or why didn't they sponsor their immigrants like you sponsored yours? An illegal can be quite quickly legalized now through a green card marriage, they don't even have to return home and follow procedures that the law abiding follow...
False. Spouses of Active Duty servicemembers can "Parole in Place". An illegal alien married to a U.S. citizen that was "presented for inspection" (even as the "Matter of Quinlantan") to enter the United States, but went out of status, can process in the United States. All other that "Entered without Inspection" ("EWI") must exit the United States for the processing of the I-601.

And this is all verifiable, known data. I looked last night to see some friends married about the same time as me and my wife still involved in I-601 processing. But then again, you've offered no source to confirm all illegal aliens can quickly obtain legal residency through a "green card marriage".

Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
...You also don't have your facts straight about the "statelessness" of the anchor babies should they stop getting US citizenship. Check out Mexican law and the laws of the other nations of the parents. Mexico DOES allow them to be given their parents' citizenship...
Source it correctly, a Mexican parent can apply for the Mexican nationality of their children born outside that country. Sure, that takes care of them, but what about nationalities other than from Mexico? I had brought up the aspect that almost all children born in the United States gain U.S. citizenship / nationality through that birth, not the citizenship status of their parent(s).

Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
...What kind of loser parents would abandon their children in some country they were in when they return home?
Provide some background, and sourcing, to understand the context you are talking about here...
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Old 07-14-2013, 11:02 AM
 
31,509 posts, read 14,580,770 times
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Interesting read although the defenders of illegals won't like the source of course.

Birthright Citizenship in the United States: A Global Comparison | Center for Immigration Studies

From the article:

What Law Requires Birthright Citizenship? Is automatic birthright citizenship for children of all legal and illegal aliens expressly required by the U.S. Constitution? On its face, the answer is “no.” No language in the Constitution specifically addresses how the children of foreigners must be dealt with in regards to citizenship. The 14th Amendment confers citizenship through “naturalization” or by birth to persons “subject to the jurisdiction” of the United States, but provides no guidance on when an alien is to be regarded as subject to U.S. jurisdiction. The next question, then, is whether any statute enacted by Congress specifically directs the granting of citizenship to children born in the United States to illegal aliens. Again, the answer is “no.” The executive branch’s birthright citizenship policy is not based on any federal regulation. One might say that the practice has become policy without becoming law.
Because the current policy has not been taken through the standard legislative or regulatory processes, it has become official practice without any input from the American public or their elected representatives. A recent survey found that only 33 percent of Americans support the practice of granting automatic citizenship to children born to illegal aliens.

Last edited by Oldglory; 07-14-2013 at 11:16 AM..
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Old 07-14-2013, 01:08 PM
 
Location: Jacurutu
5,302 posts, read 4,012,769 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arjay51 View Post
And yet you oppose removal of illegals or even the discouraging of them coming here.

Here is a fact that you seem to refuse to recognize:

No illegal parents here, no anchor children.

See how simply that works? But of course, that is not what you want, you want illegals to have superior rights to those of citizens.
What an inane claim. Is there no one here that can debate without using a Straw Man argument? I'll provide the source again: Unauthorized Immigrants and Their U.S.-Born Children | Pew Hispanic Center
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Old 07-14-2013, 01:32 PM
 
Location: Jacurutu
5,302 posts, read 4,012,769 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldglory View Post
Interesting read although the defenders of illegals won't like the source of course.

[clipped link from CIS]

From the article:

...No language in the Constitution specifically addresses how the children of foreigners must be dealt with in regards to citizenship...
I've had to significantly trim your quote in my response, to conform to the copyright notice of City-Data for this section:

Quote:
When posting reference material from a newspaper, media or online site, only post a link and a snippet (2 sentences). Preferably use your own arguments over those found in print. Avoid quoting another member's post with their referenced link as it and copyright violation posts trigger City-Data's system. Any posts that do not conform to these rules will be edited and members will receive a warning.


CIS said it correctly, that the children of foreigners are not identified separately within Section 1 of the 14th Amendment, and thus are treated identically...
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Old 07-14-2013, 02:20 PM
 
Location: Jacurutu
5,302 posts, read 4,012,769 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldglory View Post
It's not about emulating other countries. Why do you think those countries that don't allot birthright citizenship to children of illegal immigrants don't do so? It's because it does make a mockery out of a country's citizenship. It's even worse for this country because of the billions we spend of our tax money supporting them. Yet you consider that to be wonderful rather than stupid? Why not put the best interests of one's country first? What's wrong with them being made citizens of their parent's country? You never have explained that one. Your "stateless" argument is the straw man here. Another strawman argument of your own is us being the land of opportunity. Well, yes we are for those who come here legally! It's not nor should be for foreigners that violate our immigration laws and give birth on our soil.
I've provided no opinion on how other countries allocate their citizenship. Why would a U.S. citizen think it was their part to change another sovereign country? The United States has the tradition of being run differently than other countries, and one of those principles is that it often doesn't matter who your parents are for your own citizenship status.

Let's use the example of an illegal alien male (this topic has already covered the aspect that an illegal alien is more likely to be a male, [Mexican,] and most likely to be in a relationship with a U.S. citizen) that fathers a child by a U.S. citizen. What do you feel the child's citizenship should be when they are born within the United States? A child born outside the United States with the same nationalities of parentage would also typically be a U.S. citizen (and if born in Mexico, a Mexican citizen as well).

The lack of immigration status of the father has no impact of the child being "in the jurisdiction" of the United States. Our comparison to the baby born outside the United States still being a citizen (through the mother) contrasts that the child might not ever fully come under U.S. laws. To further the example, if that child remains outside the U.S., they are unable to pass derivative U.S. citizenship to their children, barring that the other parent is a U.S. citizen that has resided a required portion of time in the territory of the U.S. before the birth.

Birth within the territories of the United States, not the citizenship of the parent(s), is the more critical factor of sustained application of U.S. citizenship...
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Old 07-14-2013, 07:25 PM
 
31,509 posts, read 14,580,770 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IBMMuseum View Post
I've provided no opinion on how other countries allocate their citizenship. Why would a U.S. citizen think it was their part to change another sovereign country? The United States has the tradition of being run differently than other countries, and one of those principles is that it often doesn't matter who your parents are for your own citizenship status.

Let's use the example of an illegal alien male (this topic has already covered the aspect that an illegal alien is more likely to be a male, [Mexican,] and most likely to be in a relationship with a U.S. citizen) that fathers a child by a U.S. citizen. What do you feel the child's citizenship should be when they are born within the United States? A child born outside the United States with the same nationalities of parentage would also typically be a U.S. citizen (and if born in Mexico, a Mexican citizen as well).

The lack of immigration status of the father has no impact of the child being "in the jurisdiction" of the United States. Our comparison to the baby born outside the United States still being a citizen (through the mother) contrasts that the child might not ever fully come under U.S. laws. To further the example, if that child remains outside the U.S., they are unable to pass derivative U.S. citizenship to their children, barring that the other parent is a U.S. citizen that has resided a required portion of time in the territory of the U.S. before the birth.

Birth within the territories of the United States, not the citizenship of the parent(s), is the more critical factor of sustained application of U.S. citizenship...
Birthright citizenship has already been beat to death in here in the past. I will just say this once again and will no longer respond to your posts regarding this matter because I know how you like to beat things to death.

Children born from illegal parents (both) are not under our full jurisdiction nor are their parents. If I had my way at least one parent would have to be a citizen of this country in order for their newborn to qualify for instant citizenship. IMO, it should be the mother that is the qualifier. If the mother is here illegally then no deal for the child. Here let me repeat a paragraph from the CIS article that I posted. "The executive branch’s birthright citizenship policy is not based on any federal regulation. One might say that the practice has become policy without becoming law." End of story.
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Old 07-14-2013, 08:45 PM
 
Location: Jacurutu
5,302 posts, read 4,012,769 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldglory View Post
Birthright citizenship has already been beat to death in here in the past. I will just say this once again and will no longer respond to your posts regarding this matter because I know how you like to beat things to death...
When I prompt for specific answers, you always decline in this way...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldglory View Post
...Children born from illegal parents (both) are not under our full jurisdiction nor are their parents...
This does not resolve for why it takes both parents not being citizens for the child to be beyond the jurisdiction of the United States. We'll look at what Pew Hispanic considers the percentages of the relationships after this. Of course you saw my quote of the report that 80% of illegal alien mothers had been here at least one year before the birth (meaning the child was conceived in the United States), 50% had been here at least five years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldglory View Post
...If I had my way at least one parent would have to be a citizen of this country in order for their newborn to qualify for instant citizenship. IMO, it should be the mother that is the qualifier. If the mother is here illegally then no deal for the child...
Still, you've made a significant concession here, I'm proud of you. You've acknowledged that the 8% of births in the United States are at least one illegal alien parent (with at least one foreign-born parent, it goes up to 23%, which will also be constrained by your citizenship statement above). Who knows why you would group Legal Permanent Residents with illegal aliens for deriving citizenship from a mother though.

I'm providing a new example if my wife and I had another baby in the United States. Under your determination, the child would not be born a U.S. citizen (my wife has not naturalized yet). But if the the child were born outside the United States, it is (by my part of the parentage).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldglory View Post
...Here let me repeat a paragraph from the CIS article that I posted. "The executive branch’s birthright citizenship policy is not based on any federal regulation. One might say that the practice has become policy without becoming law." End of story.
So being in the U.S. Constitution and U.S. Code should have no effect?...
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Old 07-15-2013, 06:50 AM
 
31,509 posts, read 14,580,770 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IBMMuseum View Post
When I prompt for specific answers, you always decline in this way...



This does not resolve for why it takes both parents not being citizens for the child to be beyond the jurisdiction of the United States. We'll look at what Pew Hispanic considers the percentages of the relationships after this. Of course you saw my quote of the report that 80% of illegal alien mothers had been here at least one year before the birth (meaning the child was conceived in the United States), 50% had been here at least five years.



Still, you've made a significant concession here, I'm proud of you. You've acknowledged that the 8% of births in the United States are at least one illegal alien parent (with at least one foreign-born parent, it goes up to 23%, which will also be constrained by your citizenship statement above). Who knows why you would group Legal Permanent Residents with illegal aliens for deriving citizenship from a mother though.

I'm providing a new example if my wife and I had another baby in the United States. Under your determination, the child would not be born a U.S. citizen (my wife has not naturalized yet). But if the the child were born outside the United States, it is (by my part of the parentage).



So being in the U.S. Constitution and U.S. Code should have no effect?...
I've acknowledged no such thing about the supposed 8% birthrates. There is nothing in the Constitution that says newborns of illegal parents should be allotted birthright citizenship. It was not my intention to exclude women who are LPR's and in a relationship with a U.S. citizen to gain birthright citizenship for her newborn. There, is that clear enough for you now or are you going to keep beating this to death and nit-picking? I'm not the least bit interested so save your breath.
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