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Old 08-04-2013, 08:30 PM
 
Location: Pa
20,310 posts, read 18,890,891 times
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What I have observed is people get a little heated. As the debate rages tempers flare and that is when we see posts that are less about the topic and more about personal feelings and outrage.
The point of this thread is to demonstrate that we can all make a point in a constructive manner. Unlike party hardliners we can find common ground.
The pro-illegal side more often than not is not pro criminal behavior, they are pro-change of existing laws and or procedures.
I think most would agree that I am as anti-illegal as anyone on the forum and yet I have been able to for the most part have civil conversations with those on both sides of the issue. My goal is to make the illegal immigration a more reasonable forum.
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Old 08-04-2013, 08:36 PM
 
1,458 posts, read 1,151,662 times
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If people could really speak Their own minds, assuming they have a rational thought of their own, actual conversations could take place. But sadly, people are too busy to keep up, and chose their own "sources" due to whatever reasons.

Yes, Tinman, You are a real pleasure on any forum. Consider that a compliment of the highest order. I hate political partisanship, racial priorities, and detest those that cannot admit a mistake. I like to get to the end of an argument or debate, and prefer it to be do to facts or general consensus.

But in the end, as we age, it gets harder and harder to care.
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Old 08-04-2013, 08:56 PM
 
31,566 posts, read 14,591,651 times
Reputation: 8411
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman01 View Post
What I have observed is people get a little heated. As the debate rages tempers flare and that is when we see posts that are less about the topic and more about personal feelings and outrage.
The point of this thread is to demonstrate that we can all make a point in a constructive manner. Unlike party hardliners we can find common ground.
The pro-illegal side more often than not is not pro criminal behavior, they are pro-change of existing laws and or procedures.
I think most would agree that I am as anti-illegal as anyone on the forum and yet I have been able to for the most part have civil conversations with those on both sides of the issue. My goal is to make the illegal immigration a more reasonable forum.
I agree that most pro-illegals probably do not condone criminal behavior per se but many if not most of them are looking at this issue through ethnic blinders. They are putting ethnic ties above the immigration laws of our country and the best interests of our own citizens. I don't want to pull the race card in here but they accuse us of being racists, xenophobes,etc. when we aren't the ones doing that.....they are.

They don't want the laws changed per se they want those they have ethnic ties with to be rewarded with amnesty. Our laws wouldn't be changed in regards to illegals we would still have them. This is merely about rewarding them by allowing them to remain here when we have 23 million Americans out of work and would be adding millions of mostly unskilled, uneducated and poor foreigners permanently to our society. How is that a good thing? Isn't that a slap in the face to those who came here legally? How does one justify advocating for that? Since most are from Mexico and other Latino countries it does nothing to encourage diversity in our country either. It will merely alter our identifying culture and language. But whenever I point that fact out I get called anti-Mexican, anti-Hispanic, etc.
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Old 08-05-2013, 01:28 AM
 
Location: Too far from home.
8,743 posts, read 5,553,425 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldglory View Post
I agree that most pro-illegals probably do not condone criminal behavior per se but many if not most of them are looking at this issue through ethnic blinders. They are putting ethnic ties above the immigration laws of our country and the best interests of our own citizens. I don't want to pull the race card in here but they accuse us of being racists, xenophobes,etc. when we aren't the ones doing that.....they are.

They don't want the laws changed per se they want those they have ethnic ties with to be rewarded with amnesty. Our laws wouldn't be changed in regards to illegals we would still have them. This is merely about rewarding them by allowing them to remain here when we have 23 million Americans out of work and would be adding millions of mostly unskilled, uneducated and poor foreigners permanently to our society. How is that a good thing? Isn't that a slap in the face to those who came here legally? How does one justify advocating for that? Since most are from Mexico and other Latino countries it does nothing to encourage diversity in our country either. It will merely alter our identifying culture and language. But whenever I point that fact out I get called anti-Mexican, anti-Hispanic, etc.
Oh boy. Who are "they" that have ethnic ties and see the issue through "ethnic blinders"? Why not just come out and name who "they" are?

Is there a difference between others pulling the "race card" and being anti-Mexican, anti-Hispanic from being called anti-American, un-American, disloyal to America, pro-Hispanic?

Identifying culture? Would that be white culture? That's pulling the race card. What about all the other Americans that have a different ethnic culture? Did they destroy the white culture?

If it's not illegals, it's Muslims, if not Muslims, it's black people that are ruining this country. Just take a look at posts in other forums how some of you make those claims.

As for language - English is our first language. We don't have an official language, and on that point I believe English should be made the official language.
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Old 08-05-2013, 03:01 AM
Yac
 
5,875 posts, read 6,294,617 times
I would love to see some reasonable debate here, some civil behavior. Unfortunately illegal immigration is a hot topic and very emotional to some folks, as a result it often takes just one off topic post to derail the whole thread, as everybody is waiting to debunk the talking points of the other side.
I would also love if some critical thought was given regarding the sources cited. At this moment most of the posters here have this "if it proves my point, it's legit. if it doesn't - it's the iniernet/wiki/biased blog/whatever, it's wrong because of that". Here's a news flash for you - both sides of this issue have good and bad arguments, both have well researched articles and poorly researched propaganda pieces.
I wish some of you would be less confrontational, getting angry and up in arms whenever someone posts an opinion you disagree with.
Yac.
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Old 08-05-2013, 07:05 AM
 
31,566 posts, read 14,591,651 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yac View Post
I would love to see some reasonable debate here, some civil behavior. Unfortunately illegal immigration is a hot topic and very emotional to some folks, as a result it often takes just one off topic post to derail the whole thread, as everybody is waiting to debunk the talking points of the other side.
I would also love if some critical thought was given regarding the sources cited. At this moment most of the posters here have this "if it proves my point, it's legit. if it doesn't - it's the iniernet/wiki/biased blog/whatever, it's wrong because of that". Here's a news flash for you - both sides of this issue have good and bad arguments, both have well researched articles and poorly researched propaganda pieces.
I wish some of you would be less confrontational, getting angry and up in arms whenever someone posts an opinion you disagree with.
Yac.
I was threatened with "we are coming after you" besides being accused of being a racist, etc. for merely wanting our immigration laws respected and enforced. You tell me how that wouldn't make anyone angry or how that contributes to civil debate and an open mind to the other side's point of view.

Last edited by Oldglory; 08-05-2013 at 07:20 AM..
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Old 08-05-2013, 07:19 AM
 
31,566 posts, read 14,591,651 times
Reputation: 8411
Quote:
Originally Posted by softblueyz View Post
Oh boy. Who are "they" that have ethnic ties and see the issue through "ethnic blinders"? Why not just come out and name who "they" are?

Is there a difference between others pulling the "race card" and being anti-Mexican, anti-Hispanic from being called anti-American, un-American, disloyal to America, pro-Hispanic?

Identifying culture? Would that be white culture? That's pulling the race card. What about all the other Americans that have a different ethnic culture? Did they destroy the white culture?

If it's not illegals, it's Muslims, if not Muslims, it's black people that are ruining this country. Just take a look at posts in other forums how some of you make those claims.

As for language - English is our first language. We don't have an official language, and on that point I believe English should be made the official language.
Are you kidding me? It is common knowledge that many if not most Hispanics or those who have family ties to them want amnesty for their ethnic group here illegally. That is wearing ethnic blinders rather than standing up for the rule of law and the best interests of our own citizens.

I am talking about our identifying "American" culture. So why mention white culture? I never said that English is our "official" language but it is our national de facto one. It is a blend/melting pot. "Out of many, one". We aren't a Hispanic nation in identity. Our language isn't Spanish. With the continued influx of millions of illegals from mostly south of our border it would change our identity as a nation. Amnesty for them would also contribute to that.

Muslims are an entire different topic. To my knowledge most aren't here illegally and those that are would pale in comparison to those who are. If one objects to them or wants to defend them then they should take it to the proper forum. This forum is about illegal immigration not Muslims.
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Old 08-05-2013, 07:36 AM
 
31,566 posts, read 14,591,651 times
Reputation: 8411
Quote:
Originally Posted by softblueyz View Post
I stopped coming to this forum sometime ago. When I first came on this forum I was pretty much in the center. But it appears that you are either all in or you aren't. I was called un-American. I kept reading the posts and allowed myself to get sucked in - this was not the doing of anyone but myself.

What you feed your mind reflects in your attitude. I didn't like it when I realized I was becoming so negative. I got caught up and allowed the negativity to fester and grow because I was feeding my mind with the poison that was a constant in this forum that went beyond the illegal immigration issue. There is nothing I can do regarding illegal immigration other than have an opinion; I can't change anything, and I can't see allowing something like that to chip away at me, but there are the usual suspects that are so consumed by the illegal immigration issue. Discussions are not discussions unless one is in agreement with those that are so consumed with illegal immigration, it's just a forum that allows people to spew their venom and they can't see it.

How much and for how long can one harp on over something they have no control over, but has taken control of them? I would be curious as to what those who are so emotional about illegal immigration have done about it other than wash, rinse, repeat their issues on illegal immigration. I also find that the usual suspects also have "issues" with religion, black people, poverty. Tells me that this goes beyond illegal immigration.

For many here illegal immigration is a two-sided coin: illegal immigration and Hispanics.

My 2 cents FWIW.

The so-called venom spewed by the anti-illegal immigration side pales in comparison to the pro-illegal side. Did you read all the personal attacks and even threats to come after me by their side in the past 24 hours and yet no comment from you about that? If they were deleted prior to you reading them it's too bad you didn't get a chance to read them. It would have been a real eye opener for you.

This is the illegal immigration forum. This is what we discuss and yes it is a big issue on both sides and yet you only condemn our side for our comments? I don't consider it harping pointing out the huge negative impact that illegal immigration has on our country. If it changes a few minds by awakening them to that then that is a good thing. Our nation's future is at stake here.

I have no issues with religion, black people, etc. per se. I doubt that most anti-illegals do. Even if they did so what? They still have a legitimate reason for opposing illegal immigration and it is unrelated to the other things you mentioned.

Come on, you know the only reason that Hispanics get mentioned along with illegal immigration is because they are here by far in the largest numbers illegally. That doesn't mean we don't object to illegal immigration from other national/ethnic groups and in fact we have stated as such. Did you miss or ignore those posts? Another thing is that it is mostly their citizen counterparts that are marching in our streets and threatening to withhold their votes from politicians who won't cave into their demands. These are just the facts. How can presenting facts be racist or objectionable in here?
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Old 08-05-2013, 07:46 AM
 
Location: Too far from home.
8,743 posts, read 5,553,425 times
Reputation: 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldglory View Post
Are you kidding me? It is common knowledge that many if not most Hispanics or those who have family ties to them want amnesty for their ethnic group here illegally. That is wearing ethnic blinders rather than standing up for the rule of law and the best interests of our own citizens.

I am talking about our identifying "American" culture. So why mention white culture? I never said that English is our "official" language but it is our national de facto one. It is a blend/melting pot. "Out of many, one". We aren't a Hispanic nation in identity. Our language isn't Spanish. With the continued influx of millions of illegals from mostly south of our border it would change our identity as a nation. Amnesty for them would also contribute to that.

Muslims are an entire different topic. To my knowledge most aren't here illegally and those that are would pale in comparison to those who are. If one objects to them or wants to defend them then they should take it to the proper forum. This forum is about illegal immigration not Muslims.
Americans who have family ties, as in being married to someone who was illegal and now going through the process of become legal (you know and I know who you are referring to on this forum) are not supporting amnesty FOR EVERY ILLEGAL in the country.

The blood rushed to your so fast that you couldn't see that I agreed with you on English.

I used "Muslims" AND black people as an example of the prejudices that some people have, along with illegal immigrant hatred. If you think it was inappropriate to mention Muslims AS AN EXAMPLE of other hatreds that people have in an illegal immigration thread, then stop mention illegals in P&OC threads. If I was off base, I'm sure Yac (who apparently read the posts in the thread) would have deleted or edited my post - which he didn't. You don't get to decide what people can and can't say.

I still want to know EXACTLY what you and those that are consumed with the amnesty of illegals doing to STOP IT other than regurgitating the same thing over and over?

I guess you don't realize that government has control of the amnesty and government doesn't care what you or any other peon that serves them thinks. Maybe you should organize and demand Washington not grant amnesty, the same way illegals organized and demanded amnesty.
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Old 08-05-2013, 08:34 AM
 
Location: Pa
20,310 posts, read 18,890,891 times
Reputation: 6517
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldglory View Post
I was threatened with "we are coming after you" besides being accused of being a racist, etc. for merely wanting our immigration laws respected and enforced. You tell me how that wouldn't make anyone angry or how that contributes to civil debate and an open mind to the other side's point of view.
To be fair that is not the average poster that would do that. What I do see is the gang up on approach. Someone posts and others join ranks to attack the posts. Sometimes it is deserved given the likelihood of it being a troll post. An example would be: Americans are too lazy that is why we need illegals. Blah blah blah.
I have seen posters attacked because their wife is hispanic and the poster was trying to make a point that not all hispanics are illegals.
I myself was attacked. Well my wife was anyway and she isn't hispanic or a poster on this forum. That is how rabid it can be on here. My point is we should all be able to post without making it personal. We can make our points without attacking people on a personal level. Just because others do it doesn't make it right or add credibility to our own posts.
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