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Old 11-20-2007, 05:11 AM
 
Location: The world, where will fate take me this time?
3,162 posts, read 10,297,320 times
Reputation: 1423

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Hi people

I decided to start this post after reading other posts who stated that citizenship shouldn't come for free.

Was the victory in WW II a victory of the USA alone? or it was a victory for the American continent and countries?

Back in those times countries learnt to quickly forget their differences and fight together.

The 2 eagles or North America, America and Mexico joint efforts were crucial in the defeat of the axis, immigration laws which were much better than the current ones had to be enacted in those times, Canada and Brazil played a huge role as well, it is a shame that selfish interests created the gordian knot we are facing in these times, should we wait for another shocking thing to happen to unite ourselves again? or the wisdom and knowledge that can be exchanged thanks to the info age will allow us to do it?

http://www.city-data.com/forum/history/197880-american-continent-victory-world-war-ii.html#post2046361

KVIE | Los Braceros Strong Arms to Aid the U.S.A.

Should we reflect on this and have a different outlook at immigration and citizenship?

What about a strong and real American Union? based on peace, love unity and respect? and not in selfish interests?

it's up to you to decide.

Peace, Love, Light and Harmony

Last edited by Travelling fella; 11-20-2007 at 05:44 AM..
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Old 11-20-2007, 07:06 AM
 
1,861 posts, read 2,968,014 times
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We're talking about people who break our laws - we are a sovereign nation. They can come legally, just like we can go to Mexico legally. That's how it works.

And, citizenship should not be taken lightly. Most countries don't have the ideas of freedom that we have; we need to make sure that people who come here who want to be citizens agree with our values, laws, etc. If someone just walks over the border to get a job and benefits, do you think they have any respect for U.S. citizenship? Why should they get it?

And, most Americans and Canadians do not want a North American Union - the only country that would benefit is Mexico.
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Old 11-20-2007, 08:09 AM
 
Location: The world, where will fate take me this time?
3,162 posts, read 10,297,320 times
Reputation: 1423
Quote:
Originally Posted by cousinsal View Post
We're talking about people who break our laws - we are a sovereign nation. They can come legally, just like we can go to Mexico legally. That's how it works.

And, citizenship should not be taken lightly. Most countries don't have the ideas of freedom that we have; we need to make sure that people who come here who want to be citizens agree with our values, laws, etc. If someone just walks over the border to get a job and benefits, do you think they have any respect for U.S. citizenship? Why should they get it?

And, most Americans and Canadians do not want a North American Union - the only country that would benefit is Mexico.
Dear cousinsal: I understand your concerns, but this post has nothing to do with illegal immigration, it has more to do with creating a new world order based on peace, love unity and respect

The idea behind the post also was to show why the idea of freedom is the same, if it wasn't the same then why we all got united to fight a common enemy? if he hadn't stood united then we would have been defeated.

This was a victory of the American (continent) not just of one country alone.

Most citizens in Mexico are scared of the concept of a North American union as well, but imho these is based on fear of the unknown more than in real reasons.

http://www.city-data.com/forum/busin...-economic.html

both the 3 countries would benefit from such a concept (imho) but you have a different idea it'd be interesting to know why not

Legal immigration in these days is full of hardships that imho contribute to create a strong gordian knot of illegal immigration related problems.

imho a true American Union, not just North American Union based on Peace, Love, Unity and Respect would be a great idea, but if it's based on selfish interests is not, we can leave our governments and their selfishness to lead it, or we can be the ones who start it.

imho if we are going to win the war against illegal immigration, we will only win by a victory of the American continent, not just one of it's members.

Love and Light!
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Old 11-20-2007, 08:49 AM
 
1,861 posts, read 2,968,014 times
Reputation: 559
Quote:
Originally Posted by Travelling fella View Post
Dear cousinsal: I understand your concerns, but this post has nothing to do with illegal immigration, it has more to do with creating a new world order based on peace, love unity and respect

The idea behind the post also was to show why the idea of freedom is the same, if it wasn't the same then why we all got united to fight a common enemy? if he hadn't stood united then we would have been defeated.

This was a victory of the American (continent) not just of one country alone.

Most citizens in Mexico are scared of the concept of a North American union as well, but imho these is based on fear of the unknown more than in real reasons.

http://www.city-data.com/forum/busin...-economic.html

both the 3 countries would benefit from such a concept (imho) but you have a different idea it'd be interesting to know why not

Legal immigration in these days is full of hardships that imho contribute to create a strong gordian knot of illegal immigration related problems.

imho a true American Union, not just North American Union based on Peace, Love, Unity and Respect would be a great idea, but if it's based on selfish interests is not, we can leave our governments and their selfishness to lead it, or we can be the ones who start it.

imho if we are going to win the war against illegal immigration, we will only win by a victory of the American continent, not just one of it's members.

Love and Light!
You sound like me in about 1970!

The reason Mexico only would gain is that the Americans and Canadians are prosperous countries, and Mexico is a "3rd world country". They would bring us down, and we would bring them up. Which, some people might think is a good idea.

The whole idea of a North American Union according to the 3 countries' leaders is to have more cheap labor - they want to have a small number of people gaining, and the rest of us peons living in poverty. They want to get rid of the middle class, the backbone of our society. They'd like a bigger gap between the rich and poor - more than it already is.

They would not be doing this for "peace and love" - it's purely based on financial gain for the few, and us being their cheap labor.
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Old 11-20-2007, 08:55 AM
 
Location: The world, where will fate take me this time?
3,162 posts, read 10,297,320 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cousinsal View Post
You sound like me in about 1970!
The reason Mexico only would gain is that the Americans and Canadians are prosperous countries, and Mexico is a "3rd world country". They would bring us down, and we would bring them up. Which, some people might think is a good idea.
Hehehehe that means you have that spirit in you my friend

Mexico is not that third world, it has third world poverty and some third world corruption though, but it has first world services, economy and professionals.

Mexico - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Mexico is the 12th largest economy in the world by Gross Domestic Product (GDP), on par with countries like Canada and Spain, even though income inequality is still high. The economy is strongly linked to those of its North American Free Trade Agreement partners. Elections held in July 2000 marked the first time that an opposition party won the presidency from the Institutional Revolutionary Party (Partido Revolucionario Institucional: PRI) which had held it since 1929, culminating a process of political alternation that actively had begun at the local level during the 1980s.

Cities in the world with the highest GDP

Destaca México entre las 20 ciudades más ricas del mundo - El Universal - Finanzas

1_Tokio
2_New York
3_Los Ángeles
3_Chicago
4_París
5_London
6_Osaka
7_México City
8_Philadelfia
9_Washington.

Only 9% of Mexico's population go for illegal immigration, and this 9% is not among the 6% of the population who lives with less than one dollar per day.

Mexico - Poverty in Mexico - Fact Sheet

http://www.city-data.com/forum/immig...w-about-3.html

Emigration from Mexico to the US

http://www.pitt.edu/%7Esuper1/lecture/lec17121/001.htm

I thought that maybe this video would be interesting for you to see


YouTube - Debunking myths about the "Third World" (Amazing graphics)

Quote:
The whole idea of a North American Union according to the 3 countries' leaders is to have more cheap labor - they want to have a small number of people gaining, and the rest of us peons living in poverty. They want to get rid of the middle class, the backbone of our society. They'd like a bigger gap between the rich and poor - more than it already is.

They would not be doing this for "peace and love" - it's purely based on financial gain for the few, and us being their cheap labor.
That's why it should be us, the common folk the ones who create it, our "leaders" lie to us and have stopped caring about what we want and what we need imho.

Just some humble ideas.

respect!
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Old 11-20-2007, 10:11 AM
 
3,712 posts, read 5,710,869 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Travelling fella View Post
Hehehehe that means you have that spirit in you my friend

Mexico is not that third world, it has third world poverty and some third world corruption though, but it has first world services, economy and professionals.

respect!
Great! Then Mexico should have no problem providing for all their wayward citizens when the US sends them back home.

If the majority of the people in the US and Canada are not in favor of NAU then it is not going to happen. The Canadians are even less in favor of it than we are. It does not matter if the NAU would usher in the Age of Aquarius or whatever. We have the right to decide whether or not to participate.
Mexico needs to learn to respect the wishes of their neighbors. If we don't want it, you have no business continually trying to foist this on us. Americans and Canadians are not fools- it is obvious to most of us that the NAU would 'adversely affect' our economies and our lives. The only winners would be Mexico and big business.
Calling anyone who does not embrace your Global Tribal Village school of thought 'selfish' really doesn't help your cause. Furthermore, I don't believe I have ever seen you apply the adjective 'selfish' to Carlos Slim and Mexico's upper class or corrupt government officials. Why are they given a pass, while the average American or Canadian who is just trying to get by is called selfish because they prefer that their country not be overrun?

Read up on the Zimmerman telegram before talking about what a great ally Mexico has been.
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Old 11-20-2007, 12:00 PM
 
Location: The world, where will fate take me this time?
3,162 posts, read 10,297,320 times
Reputation: 1423
Quote:
Originally Posted by andreabeth View Post
Great! Then Mexico should have no problem providing for all their wayward citizens when the US sends them back home.

If the majority of the people in the US and Canada are not in favor of NAU then it is not going to happen. The Canadians are even less in favor of it than we are. It does not matter if the NAU would usher in the Age of Aquarius or whatever. We have the right to decide whether or not to participate.
Mexico needs to learn to respect the wishes of their neighbors. If we don't want it, you have no business continually trying to foist this on us. Americans and Canadians are not fools- it is obvious to most of us that the NAU would 'adversely affect' our economies and our lives. The only winners would be Mexico and big business.
Calling anyone who does not embrace your Global Tribal Village school of thought 'selfish' really doesn't help your cause. Furthermore, I don't believe I have ever seen you apply the adjective 'selfish' to Carlos Slim and Mexico's upper class or corrupt government officials. Why are they given a pass, while the average American or Canadian who is just trying to get by is called selfish because they prefer that their country not be overrun?

Read up on the Zimmerman telegram before talking about what a great ally Mexico has been.
Hi Andrea

Imho nothing bad can happen for having these dialogues here in the forum, neither you nor I are violating anybody's rights or commiting violent actions, we are just exchanging ideas and different points of view and that's healthy.

imho, you can't say that Mexico disrespects the laws of the USA, when only 9% of the population emigrates illegally to the USA, it's a significant amount of people, yes but it's not even near the majority of the country's population. the other 91% of us are struggling very hard every day to make this country a world class country.

Let's make a self criticism, of those selfish people whom you mentioned.

Carlos slim is a person that has benefited a lot from Mexico's corrupt system, he is only that filthy rich because of all the privileges he got from Carlos Salinas de Gortari, one of the most corrupt Mexican presidents of contemporary history, he was beaten by Cuauhtemoc Cardenas Solorzano, who was the son of a great Mexican president, Lazaro Cardenas, but he stole the elections using his corrupt's party power structure to claim that the system had failed and invalidating the vote count of the computers.

Carlos Salinas de Gortari - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Elections

The process involved two suspicious shutdowns of the computer system used to keep track of the number of votes. Suspicions later grew as the Mexican Congress voted (with support from the National Action Party, PAN) to destroy without opening the electoral documentation that could prove otherwise. Other people believed that Salinas, in fact, won the ballot, albeit probably not with an absolute majority as the official figures suggested, although that is not required under Mexican election law.

During an interview for television in September 2005, Miguel de la Madrid acknowledged that the PRI lost the 1988 elections. However, he immediately cleared his comment by saying that the PRI had "at least lost a significant amount of voters". Asked for comment on de la Madrid's statements, Senator Manuel Bartlett, who was the president of the Comisión Federal Electoral ("Federal Electoral Commission") during the de la Madrid administration, declared Salinas won the election albeit with the smallest margin of any PRI candidate before him. He attributed de la Madrid's remarks to his old age (71 years old as of 2005) and the remarks being taken out of context by journalist Carlos Loret de Mola.

You can see the info about Lazaro Cardenas as well, i'm seriously thinking in updating the wikipedia info because the spanish version is much more complete.

Lázaro Cárdenas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

you can see the info of Cuauhtemoc Cardenas too
Cuauhtémoc Cárdenas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Returning to Carlos Salinas de Gortari, he caused a great harm to this nation, although there is no direct proof, the corruption that brought him to power, and the corruption he generated abusing Mexico's former concept of presidential power, brought the worst economic crisis that Mexico has suffered in her entire history.

1994 economic crisis in Mexico - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This was caused because of all the abuse of the system by "entrepreneurs" who were artifically benefited by Carlos Salinas de Gortari, Carlos slim was among them, they stole the nation of almost everything it had valuable and they created the fobaproa, the worst fraud in Mexico's modern history.

Fobaproa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

All this selfishness has shattered Mexican life standards several times, but something good came out of it, the people of Mexico now knows that the government shouldn't be trusted for free, people trust the current president because so far he has earned that trust.

Now let's make some healthy self criticism of American corruption as well.

The current situation of American economy has been caused by several factors that are similar to the crises that sent Mexico straight to the third world, High level corruption, abuse of presidential power and unfair privileges for "entrepreneurs" who have been artificially benefited by the American government with tax breaks and a system designed to keep immigrant illegal but at the same time to guarantee a steady supply of them.

You don't need to be a genious to see that something rotten lead to 9/11, and it was something rotten inside America (imho) , you might disagree with me which is ok, but for me all this "Terrorism" stuff is nothing else that a plan devised by powerful and evil people who wanted to profit greatly from the war.

Military-industrial complex - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A lof of wars fought in the name of "Freedom" were nothing else but the desire of this powerful group to become filthy rich and "boost" the economy of the United States at a very high price which will have to be paid karmically in the end.

The karma of this actions is already being felt, the American army is trapped in iraq, fighting a war that has no sense at all or any real connection to Osama Bin Laden, who's still free, the American economy is suffering greatly, but the Rich and powerful of her society are unaffected, this is starting to look like Mexico

Quote:
A vital element in keeping the peace is our military establishment. Our arms must be mighty, ready for instant action, so that no potential aggressor may be tempted to risk his own destruction...

This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence — economic, political, even spiritual — is felt in every city, every statehouse, every office of the federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources and livelihood are all involved; so is the very structure of our society.

In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.

We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals so that security and liberty may prosper together.

President Dwight D. Eissenhower on Farewell Address to the Nation on January 17, 1961:
Nafta has brought great benefits for the 3 countries, this can't be denied, but it has also brought negative consequences for the 3 countries as well, one of this has been a boost in illegal emigrants from Mexico to the United states.

North American Free Trade Agreement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This are the reasons why in previous posts I've stated that some check and balances are needed in order to balance the current savage capitalism system that is applied in the 3 countries, some people call it comunism and are afraid of it, but it's just common sense to know that huge income concentrations cause economic depressions and a lot of unequality, all this is the product of greed and selfishness.

Now, I have to say that we, the average folk or Canada, USA and Mexico, who have to struggle to make ends meet haven't been selfish, we aren't the illegal immigrants or the rich and powerful who create these policies, however we share some of the blame, because we've been gulible, lazy and divided (imho)

Also, regarding the zimmerman telegram that you mentioned, I guess this states pretty much Mexico's position.

Zimmermann Telegram - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Carranza formally declined Zimmermann's proposals on April 14, by which time the U.S. had declared war on Germany.

Temptation exists, even Christ was tempted, but he resisted it, that's what matters

Temptation of Christ - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Mexico resisted the temptation to attack her neighboor, and sent a diplomatic reply to Germany, imho there's nothing wrong on that, it was wise not to enrage the Kaiser's government, but at the same time let them know that Mexico wouldn't help in their game.

But now we live in the dawn of the information age, the global age, and the internet is a very powerful and effective tool to empower the common folk, a new and peaceful revolution is on it's way now.

Those are my humble 2 cents, I hope you enjoyed the post, I enjoy very much to exchange ideas with you.

Keep the vibe alive

Love and Light!

Last edited by Travelling fella; 11-20-2007 at 12:19 PM..
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Old 11-20-2007, 12:11 PM
 
2,432 posts, read 6,004,847 times
Reputation: 1009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Travelling fella View Post
Hi people

I decided to start this post after reading other posts who stated that citizenship shouldn't come for free.

Was the victory in WW II a victory of the USA alone? or it was a victory for the American continent and countries?

Back in those times countries learnt to quickly forget their differences and fight together.

The 2 eagles or North America, America and Mexico joint efforts were crucial in the defeat of the axis, immigration laws which were much better than the current ones had to be enacted in those times, Canada and Brazil played a huge role as well, it is a shame that selfish interests created the gordian knot we are facing in these times, should we wait for another shocking thing to happen to unite ourselves again? or the wisdom and knowledge that can be exchanged thanks to the info age will allow us to do it?

http://www.city-data.com/forum/history/197880-american-continent-victory-world-war-ii.html#post2046361

KVIE | Los Braceros Strong Arms to Aid the U.S.A.

Should we reflect on this and have a different outlook at immigration and citizenship?

What about a strong and real American Union? based on peace, love unity and respect? and not in selfish interests?

it's up to you to decide.

Peace, Love, Light and Harmony
Actually Mexico entered the war late and her contributions in WW2 were very limited. But better late than never. And I don't see how WW2 has anything to do with the NAU or immigration.

In WW2 the allies united to defeat an evil army that was determined to conquer the world. That has nothing to do with Americans not wanting their economy and jobs being sucked into Mexico.
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Old 11-20-2007, 12:19 PM
 
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I think the only Mexican unit to see any kind of action in the war was a fighter wing in 1945.

The guest worker program really opened up during the war to attract migrant workers to work in the fields while our young people were overseas. A big part of the illegal immigration problem stems from the migrant worker program that started during the war.
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Old 11-20-2007, 12:33 PM
 
Location: The world, where will fate take me this time?
3,162 posts, read 10,297,320 times
Reputation: 1423
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkeye48 View Post
Actually Mexico entered the war late and her contributions in WW2 were very limited. But better late than never. And I don't see how WW2 has anything to do with the NAU or immigration.

In WW2 the allies united to defeat an evil army that was determined to conquer the world. That has nothing to do with Americans not wanting their economy and jobs being sucked into Mexico.
Dear Hawkeye: Mexico entered the war late, this is true, but so did the USA, they entered when the war was advanced, and their roles were essential to win it, you can read the post I left in the history forum of CD. but if you prefer I'll explain why.

Without workers or natural resources, there's no army, your army can be wiped out while fighting in foreign territories, but if you have workers and raw materials you can rebuild it, and counterattack.

Mexico - Forgotten World War II Ally - BY SHEP LENCHEK - IN MEXICO CONNECT

Mexican raw materials fueled over 40% of the U.S. war industries, a fact that historians have chosen to ignore. This in itself was a great contribution to the American and Allied war effort and merits acknowledgment.

Also unrecognized, untold numbers of Mexicans, particularly those with relatives in the U.S., flocked across the border and served in all branches of the U.S. military. How many of them were killed is unknown. For those who chose to become U.S. citizens, citizenship was automatic. However, over the years, many returned to Mexico despite their new citizenship.

Although the role of Mexicans in combat was minimal, the denial of Mexico as a safe harbor for German submarines was of great importance. Mexican oil also helped fuel the U.S. war machine. With over 6 million American men in the armed forces and thousands of women in the factories, Mexican agricultural workers kept the food chain moving and, as we have already noted, Mexican raw materials were vital to the war effort. The supply was secure from submarine attacks and did not tie up warships in convoy duty.
Finally, although they depended on U.S. help to do so, the determination of the Mexican Government to resist the forces that might well have created either a Fascist or Communist Government next door to the U.S., removed the threat of sabotage or across-the-border forays that would, in essence, have necessitated either an American invasion of Mexico or the deployment of large forces to guard its southern border. Either one of these alternatives would have seriously hampered America's march to victory.

Back in those years, a program that legalized the migration flows between Mexico and the USA was enacted, this was essential in winning WW II

The Bracero Program

The system wasn't perfect though, and it kept deteriorating due to several factors, but it was better than the current criminalization of a phenomenon that has existed since the birth of both countries, imho a new bracero program, which applies a new outlook based on the experience of the mistakes commited by the mindset of 1940 adapted to the conditions of this era could be a better solution, but this is just an opinion, I'm stating the reasons of why I believe this, feel free to state yours as well

America has benefits from the labor of these illegal immigrants, the challenge here is to find who gets benefited, who gets harmed, and what can be done to work on the negative aspects of this phenomenon so no one gets harmed.

Dollars sent to Mexico are good for the US economy because they keep the dollar strong, the more dollars are circulating in foreign countries the stronger the dollar is, because those dollars are used as foreign reserves, due to the recent problems with the subprime crisis and the iraq war, a lot of countries have sold their dollar stash, and started buying euros, this is what is causing the dollar devaluation, and with it the life standards of the population. (imho)

Could this be the solution?



Or this?





It's up to you to decide, this is just info intended to be pondered (if you wish to do so)




Respect!

Last edited by Travelling fella; 11-20-2007 at 01:44 PM..
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