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I'm anti illegal, however, I do believe that many do jobs that Americans won't do - or at least at the same wages. I do think our goods and services would increase in cost and fairly substantially. American culture is largely based on consumerism or at least has been since the late 70's or so. People go to places like Wal Mart, Sam's Club and Costco and buy things in bulk. We often buy things we don't need or buy the newest and best of something. Illegals working in our agricultural fields for instance, does keep our food prices down and allows up to spend money on other things, such as cars, travel, electronics, cell phone service, etc. Americans are starting to cut back on things simply because the gas prices have gone up. That's one thing. If all of our food prices shot up, we'd have to cut back on other things and I don't think many people would be happy to do that. It seems to me that many people don't want illegal immigrants working here, but aren't willing to pay the sacrifice if the illegals weren't. Another large group that has dropped out of the workforce are American teens. When I was a teen, most kids worked as busboys, cut lawns, shoveled snow, pumped gas, worked in a fast food establishment, etc. Now most of those jobs are done by immigrants - some that are legal. A place like McDonald's pays a set wage, but yet good luck finding kids to work there. I'd gladly pay a neighborhood kid to cut my grass but none of them want to, so our neighborhood hires landscaping services. Besides cheaper products, there may not be a benefit to illegal aliens, but cheaper products are a huge benefit. Most Americans won't work as hard for as little and many kids (and their parents) turn their noses up to $7.00 an hour jobs.
Walmart products are mostly from China not remotely related to illegals from Mexico. Walmart wont be effected with or without illegals.
Produce wouldn’t change since migrant workers are allowed to enter in temporary worker permits. Using food prices as a reason to continue illegal immigration is the pro-illegals favorite excuse. Everyone panics and it isn’t going to happen.
The illegals take jobs in construction by under bidding the legal workers thus only increasing the contractors profit. Ever see the labor savings passed on to the consumer? No you haven’t and you never will.
Plenty of HS and College students are working for minimum wage in NC. They would also be working in CA if it weren’t for the illegals taking the jobs.
Travelling fella, I have read your posts and I find them quite interesting even if some of your opinions make sense to you and not me. I live with illegals everyday and deal with the consequences of illegals everyday. Yes, ups and downs. Mostly downs. I like the food tho.
All I can say to you is....You won't know what we mean or live with unless you live it. Your theories look good on paper or typed on here. But reality isn't measuring into it. There is a quality to any person. What they think is right and wrong. I would never dream of crossing the border and becoming a burden on your country. Becoming an illegal alien. I would never break your laws. Why do you think or anyone for that matter think it's alright to break our laws and as a reward for breaking these laws make them a citizen?
And what are your ideas on limitations? Do you suggest granting amnesty to all those already here and letting an unlimited number of migrants pour in free and fast is not a recipe for disaster? If there are limitations as to how many will get this fast and free immigration, then all those who don't get in will still be illegally crossing the border, because that's exactly what's already happening.
i think amnesty should be contingent on a health screening and background check. but yeah, give it to them. we are able to hold them all in terms of geographical area, no problem. it wont hurt our economy, either... especially if we treat them like 1st class people and educate them and give them opportunities to succeed like everyone else. i dont see any reason why we should put limitations on the numbers, either. if we make it a policy to make mexico a primary trade partner and bolster their economy and working class quality of life, there will be less desire to immigrate. we help them and we help ourselves in the process.
i think amnesty should be contingent on a health screening and background check. but yeah, give it to them. we are able to hold them all in terms of geographical area, no problem. it wont hurt our economy, either... especially if we treat them like 1st class people and educate them and give them opportunities to succeed like everyone else. i dont see any reason why we should put limitations on the numbers, either. if we make it a policy to make mexico a primary trade partner and bolster their economy and working class quality of life, there will be less desire to immigrate. we help them and we help ourselves in the process.
I don't agree. So we will agree to disagree. You do not REWARD breaking the law. Ok, Say we let 1 million Mexicans in...We would also have to be equal and let 1 million from each and every other country in. I know several Turkish people that have been going thru the process for years. LEGALLY. Shouldn't they be allowed in the same way? Without all the red tape. Altho they would have to come on ship or plane.
Do you know how many other countries would be screaming bloody murder? How many people that is and what an impact it would be on the economy that is already taking a nose dive and jobs lost?
Location: The world, where will fate take me this time?
3,162 posts, read 11,436,860 times
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Originally Posted by Starwalker Fallen Angel
Travelling fella, I have read your posts and I find them quite interesting even if some of your opinions make sense to you and not me. I live with illegals everyday and deal with the consequences of illegals everyday. Yes, ups and downs. Mostly downs. I like the food tho.
All I can say to you is....You won't know what we mean or live with unless you live it. Your theories look good on paper or typed on here. But reality isn't measuring into it. There is a quality to any person. What they think is right and wrong. I would never dream of crossing the border and becoming a burden on your country. Becoming an illegal alien. I would never break your laws. Why do you think or anyone for that matter think it's alright to break our laws and as a reward for breaking these laws make them a citizen?
Dear starwalker, I have to admit that your posts have been of those that shake consciousness to me
I didn't know how the situation of many americans really is, I guess we have a lot of misconceptions about our countries that create these misunderstandings.
People from Mexico, specially the would be emigrant, imagines that the "first world" is a place where everybody is wealthy and lives a life without worries or having to break their backs to raise a family and live a decent life, I guess they think, it's unselfish and unfair that I have to endure these conditions while others don't I'm gonna have my piece of that cake, they use this rationalization to break in without thinking in the consequences of their actions, this is selfish I have to admit. (what the emigrants do)
People from the USA also imagines that the "third world" is nothing but a hellish place, with no human rights, no future, no hope, no technology, and where the big majority of the population lacks education or skills which is not, truth is that Mexico has poverty, yes maybe more than the United States, but the poorest among the poor enjoy welfare services
That's why the poorest among the poor don't emigrate, neither the growing middle class or the rich, but there is a segment of the population which has living conditions similar to those which you described that are the usual emigrants (at least according to wikipedia)
INEGI estimated in 2000 that about 8 million Mexican-born individuals live in the United States of America; that is 8.7% of total Mexican population.[16] In that same year, the states with the greatest number emigrants to the United States were Jalisco (170,793), Michoacán (165,502) and Guanajuato (163,338), with the total number of emigrants being 1,569,157 the great majority of which were men.[17] Approximately 30% of emigrants come from rural communities.[18] That same year, only 260,650 emigrants returned to Mexico.[19]
In spite of the improved economic conditions in Mexico and the growing interdependence of both countries the emigration of Mexicans to the United States has not slowed. While some argue that this is due to economic disparities between rural and urban, rich and poor populations, others suggest that the migration phenomenon is simply moving in inertia, as Mexican residents in the United States are now bringing their families who had stayed in Mexico.
This emigration is not just hurting the USA but Mexico as well
After reading your posts I think that the conditions in our countries aren't that different as people think, the differences come from the wages that are paid, which are a lot for the would be emigrant thinking in the prices and costs of living of Mexico, but the truth is that they barely make ends meet in the USA.
The experiences we are sharing in this place, should be used for something positive, I yet don't know what, but we must do something, what about a union? a union between the forum users, no matter how different our positions might be, we all agree in something, this phenomenon of illegal immigration is disturbing to us and we want solutions.
Peace, Love, Light, Harmony
Last edited by Travelling fella; 11-22-2007 at 06:57 AM..
I don't agree. So we will agree to disagree. You do not REWARD breaking the law.
then why did we repeal alcohol prohibition? why did we abolish slavery (after giving them sanctuary in the north)? answer those questions and you'll understand my point of view.
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Ok, Say we let 1 million Mexicans in...We would also have to be equal and let 1 million from each and every other country in.
not necessarily. im sure residents of many countries are either unable to emigrate or do not want to immigrate to the US. on top of that, there are geographical boundaries (read: oceans) that will prevent many people from coming over here.
but again, the US is 146th ranked in population density. we could have 3 BILLION people and not crack the top 25 in terms of pure population density. and if our immigration reform also calls for true free trade expansion, a lot of our trade partners will be economically close enough to us to decrease the incentives for coming to the US anyway.
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I know several Turkish people that have been going thru the process for years. LEGALLY. Shouldn't they be allowed in the same way? Without all the red tape. Altho they would have to come on ship or plane.
yes, they should. im not singling out mexico just because they are our biggest contributor. and again, the whole ship or plane thing is a geographic obstacle that will deter massive immigration from every single country.
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Do you know how many other countries would be screaming bloody murder?
no. why dont you tell me.
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How many people that is and what an impact it would be on the economy that is already taking a nose dive and jobs lost?
tell me what impact you think it would have on this economy, and how you came to such a conclusion.
(btw, unemployment rates have remained stagnant throughout the years before and during the immigration boom. what do you attribute that to?)
not necessarily. im sure residents of many countries are either unable to emigrate or do not want to immigrate to theUS. on top of that.......
Do you have a source for this information?
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Originally Posted by ghost
but again, the US is 146th ranked in population density. we could have 3 BILLION people and not crack the top 25 in terms of pure population density.
Yes, but how much of the US isn't developed? Has no water, power, no road access? How much of the US without these things is unlivable without MAJOR cost of development? What about the already diminishing supply of resources like water, power, etc.? So all these people aren't going to go in the middle of the mountains with no roads are water, where are they going to go? To the ALREADY overcrowded cities, and fill up those cities and towns that are still at a density most view as comfortable. This density argument is ridiculous. I'd bet in a normal 3 bd. house the fire marshall would say maximum capacity is probably around 60 people, does that mean I should have 50 people living in my house just cause "technically" I can fit more? I THINK NOT.
not a direct one. im basing that statement more off of world opinion of the US presently. i doubt people would think negatively of the united states and proceed to immigrate there.
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Yes, but how much of the US isn't developed? Has no water, power, no road access?
it can be developed.
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How much of the US without these things is unlivable without MAJOR cost of development?
assume 75%. that still gives us a 750 million person capacity. over double what we have now.
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What about the already diminishing supply of resources like water, power, etc.? So all these people aren't going to go in the middle of the mountains with no roads are water, where are they going to go? To the ALREADY overcrowded cities, and fill up those cities and towns that are still at a density most view as comfortable.
water is a tough one for sure. but with free trade and advancing technologies, we should be able to solve this problem without too much hinderance. a little civilian discipline in regards to water usage wouldnt hurt either.
power is another big one. the more we focus on self-sustaining housing, the less of a problem this will be. we have the tools to take care of this. it is up to us.
and cities are no doubt crowded, but they can be expanded, or new ones can be built. if you have the sheer numbers, you will have developers doing the business. thats how we've been handling our steady population increase over the past couple centuries. why stop now?
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This density argument is ridiculous. I'd bet in a normal 3 bd. house the fire marshall would say maximum capacity is probably around 60 people, does that mean I should have 50 people living in my house just cause "technically" I can fit more? I THINK NOT.
nobody is asking you to squeeze in your house with an army of people. there are lots of undeveloped parts of the country... and if someone DID decide to crowd a house, thats their choice. it would certainly be a cost-effective sacrifice.
Their breaking the law why would we give them amnesty? it would not benfit us as a nation only add to the problems we already have, why would we ever do that.
Also it is unfair to other people around the world that have waited to come here the right way.
that would mean that everyone around the world could come in be given amnesty just because they want it!! in it would only be fair to give it to them them.'you can not give one group of people amnesty and not give it to the other group.'
again where would it benfits us?
How about 12 million americans get together in go to mexico in say we want free cizinship,foodstamps,free health care and jobs, no this will not benfit you but it is the right thing to do!! how long do you think that will last!!
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