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Old 05-20-2014, 10:37 PM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,699,632 times
Reputation: 22158

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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDGeek View Post
I'm sure it's far higher than 12 million but 60-70 million is not plausible to me. I'd believe 30 million.
It's hard to say -- 30 million would be a pretty good low estimate -- it could be 60 million by now -- there is essentially no enforcement of immigration laws -- and Central Americans are coming by the trainload-full EVERY day.

Many are in the late stages of pregnancy -- a US birth soon after arrival is a great guarantee --- life long welfare handouts and it's an easy way around the immigration laws. This one made it over the border just in the nick of time! Now it's a life of welfare handouts, she never needs to worry about working for a living again.


'La Bestia' — Honduran immigrants in El Paso describe journey on notorious train - El Paso Times

Navarro and her son reached Anapra, by then she was having sharp labor pains. A smuggler in Anapra told her he could get her and the son across the border for $1,000 cash. She didn't have the money. The smuggler threatened to kill her if she didn't come up with the money when he returned.

"A woman who said she was a Christian showed me where to cross, but I hesitated when I saw the Border Patrol vehicles," Navarro said. "The woman told me I couldn't stay or go back because I would be killed, and that it was better to take my chances with the Border Patrol."

Border Patrol agents intercepted Navarro and her son when they crossed the border.

"They were kind and treated us well," she said. Soon after that, Navarro was hospitalized and gave birth to a new son.

 
Old 05-21-2014, 06:53 AM
 
9,243 posts, read 7,097,724 times
Reputation: 2199
Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
It's hard to say -- 30 million would be a pretty good low estimate -- it could be 60 million by now -- there is essentially no enforcement of immigration laws -- and Central Americans are coming by the trainload-full EVERY day.

Many are in the late stages of pregnancy -- a US birth soon after arrival is a great guarantee --- life long welfare handouts and it's an easy way around the immigration laws. This one made it over the border just in the nick of time! Now it's a life of welfare handouts, she never needs to worry about working for a living again.


'La Bestia' — Honduran immigrants in El Paso describe journey on notorious train - El Paso Times

Navarro and her son reached Anapra, by then she was having sharp labor pains. A smuggler in Anapra told her he could get her and the son across the border for $1,000 cash. She didn't have the money. The smuggler threatened to kill her if she didn't come up with the money when he returned.

"A woman who said she was a Christian showed me where to cross, but I hesitated when I saw the Border Patrol vehicles," Navarro said. "The woman told me I couldn't stay or go back because I would be killed, and that it was better to take my chances with the Border Patrol."

Border Patrol agents intercepted Navarro and her son when they crossed the border.

"They were kind and treated us well," she said. Soon after that, Navarro was hospitalized and gave birth to a new son.
It possibly could be. There is no way of telling unless we take a census of everyone in the country.
We have done nothing since the last amnesty except encourage it. 30 million could be a low ball number.

With such a large illegal population there is no naturalization process to become American.
Their borders extend into ours. An illegal can have 3 or 4 children and never naturalize. They don't need to learn English. With so many illegals repeating this pattern our language, culture & border becomes smaller.

60 million illegals creates a huge culture shock over time. Eventually this group will push for autonomy as they are doing now.
 
Old 05-21-2014, 06:58 AM
 
Location: Pa
20,310 posts, read 18,881,481 times
Reputation: 6517
Quote:
Originally Posted by lvoc View Post
That is another of the incorrect views. There is no way that eVerify does anything other than make the problem worse. You simply drive the workers underground in the gray market. So no taxes no FICA no unemployment. Very bad trend that we should resist. We do not want to establish a full grey market economy with tax avoidance. Construction in Southern Nevada for instance is probably majority off the books. The games go on at the bottom level of sub-contractor. You go after one and it simply disappears and a new one starts up the next day.

And EVerify does not get near that one. The sub is an expendable LLC that vanishes on scrutiny. Every body gets paid in cash. Exactly who works which days is never clear.
As it stands if an employer is caught hiring illegals it is very difficult to prosecute them. (This from the Fed) Because they can claim that they didn't know the employees were illegals. E-verify removes the I didn't know from the employers legal excuse book. Add to this massive fines and mandatory jail term and no sane employer will risk hiring an illegal. I include joe home owner to cheap to hired a licensed contractor. It has been proven time and again when Cities crack down on illegals, the illegals relocate to places that don't go after them. E-Verify for land lords will also help with the problem. Make life impossible and illegals will self deport. They will have no choice but to do so. I would also add seize the assets of any illegal caught to help offset the cost of their deportation.
You list 1 employment market that uses subs. I agree about the construction part, but that is not the only place illegals work. As the facilitators like to claim big corporations like cheap illegal labor. I think they overstate that problem. But E-verify would then make it impossible for meat packing plants, farms, hotels, and food service industries to escape accountability.
There is a very good reason why the advocates of illegals don't want E-verify passed into law.
 
Old 05-21-2014, 07:09 AM
 
20,611 posts, read 12,282,218 times
Reputation: 5895
Quote:
Originally Posted by All American NYC View Post
It possibly could be. There is no way of telling unless we take a census of everyone in the country.
We have done nothing since the last amnesty except encourage it. 30 million could be a low ball number.

With such a large illegal population there is no naturalization process to become American.
Their borders extend into ours. An illegal can have 3 or 4 children and never naturalize. They don't need to learn English. With so many illegals repeating this pattern our language, culture & border becomes smaller.

60 million illegals creates a huge culture shock over time. Eventually this group will push for autonomy as they are doing now.
Too; those illegal aliens have "friends" in high places, otherwise there'd be a full on effort to chase them OUT of the US.
 
Old 05-21-2014, 01:18 PM
 
Location: Cali
3,885 posts, read 5,993,830 times
Reputation: 2200
Quote:
Originally Posted by All American NYC View Post

60 million illegals creates a huge culture shock over time. Eventually this group will push for autonomy as they are doing now.
My state will become "CrimeaFornia" sooner than people think.
 
Old 05-21-2014, 02:19 PM
 
12,973 posts, read 12,137,944 times
Reputation: 5398
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman01 View Post
As it stands if an employer is caught hiring illegals it is very difficult to prosecute them. (This from the Fed) Because they can claim that they didn't know the employees were illegals. E-verify removes the I didn't know from the employers legal excuse book. Add to this massive fines and mandatory jail term and no sane employer will risk hiring an illegal. I include joe home owner to cheap to hired a licensed contractor. It has been proven time and again when Cities crack down on illegals, the illegals relocate to places that don't go after them. E-Verify for land lords will also help with the problem. Make life impossible and illegals will self deport. They will have no choice but to do so. I would also add seize the assets of any illegal caught to help offset the cost of their deportation.
You list 1 employment market that uses subs. I agree about the construction part, but that is not the only place illegals work. As the facilitators like to claim big corporations like cheap illegal labor. I think they overstate that problem. But E-verify would then make it impossible for meat packing plants, farms, hotels, and food service industries to escape accountability.
There is a very good reason why the advocates of illegals don't want E-verify passed into law.
eVerify does not remove the false ID problem. You just need a better false ID. YOu have to be someone who exists. And again the construction industry at least in the SW is entirely dependent on subcontractors who have large illegal components. And they are not reachable by eVerify. Nor is Joe Homeowner who is protected by day laborer statutes. You may get at the bigger landscapers...but guess what...here come the sub-contractors.

Actually it has been proven that some illegals will move on, as will many legals if a state appears hostile. But they don't go back to Mexico. And if there is good wages available you will see them flock back. Best way to get rid of illegals is a lousy economy.

Again farms and agriculture go to sub-contractors. Even hotels do it.

It may work in the meat packing and manufacturing industries...but even there the small operations will go subcontractor.

You could stamp a lot of this out if you had the manpower and the will. But it requires investigation and monitoring and right now there are simply too many illegals in too many jobs.

So what you need is either get the numbers down or live with it. The only practical way to decrease the numbers is a status change of some sort with enough usefulness that the illegals sign up.
 
Old 05-21-2014, 03:37 PM
 
11,485 posts, read 5,507,878 times
Reputation: 9861
Currently, E-verify does NOT remove the "false ID problem". It needs to be tweaked so that this is fixed. Right now, illegals name their anchor babies after themselves and then use said child's SSN. In its present form, E-verify doesn't pick that up---so it really needs to be fixed.

Once E-verify is improved and made the law of the land, then hotels and farms won't be able to get away with using illegals. Besides, farmers have no excuse for using cheap, exploitable, illegal labor when there is an agricultural guest worker visa that has not caps on it.

You keep bringing up the underground economy. That has always been around and it will always be a problem to some extent. That said, as I pointed out to you, there are currently 8 million no-match SSNs in the work force. Once they get weeded out, there won't be enough jobs in the underground economy for them all.

Illegals don't need any "status change". After all, they have no business being here and need to leave. Besides, if you give illegals amnesty, it won't solve a thing as even more illegals will sneak in if the status quo remains.
 
Old 05-21-2014, 05:30 PM
 
12,973 posts, read 12,137,944 times
Reputation: 5398
Quote:
Originally Posted by BOS2IAD View Post
Currently, E-verify does NOT remove the "false ID problem". It needs to be tweaked so that this is fixed. Right now, illegals name their anchor babies after themselves and then use said child's SSN. In its present form, E-verify doesn't pick that up---so it really needs to be fixed.

Once E-verify is improved and made the law of the land, then hotels and farms won't be able to get away with using illegals. Besides, farmers have no excuse for using cheap, exploitable, illegal labor when there is an agricultural guest worker visa that has not caps on it.

You keep bringing up the underground economy. That has always been around and it will always be a problem to some extent. That said, as I pointed out to you, there are currently 8 million no-match SSNs in the work force. Once they get weeded out, there won't be enough jobs in the underground economy for them all.

Illegals don't need any "status change". After all, they have no business being here and need to leave. Besides, if you give illegals amnesty, it won't solve a thing as even more illegals will sneak in if the status quo remains.
Again you whistle in the dark. It don't work. Farms routinely use subcontractors. All this will mean is lots of small ones and no big ones. HS swipes one start another. You simply have to get in there and figure out who is running it and how to ever control it. Hotels can do a similar thing though as they get bigger it gets awkward.

Yes I keep bringing up the underground economy. Yes it has been around a long time and in some industries has a significant foothold. What you don't want is for it to get well enough established to become the norm as it is in some countries in Europe. And forcing working illegals off the payroll but not out of the country is just the right way to do that. And we don't force them out of the country because the task is simply too big by maybe 20 X or 30 X to be practically done.

Either get up the huge billions to deport them or make them legal. The existing case is the worst. And I see little if any support other than the limit right for even attempting the deportation.

And no they are not going to "self deport" which is a right fantasy. They simply go underground and suffers a little more. And they can out wait us...if all else fails.
 
Old 05-21-2014, 05:44 PM
 
Location: San Diego
32,799 posts, read 30,034,103 times
Reputation: 17687
Quote:
Originally Posted by TriMT7 View Post
12 million may be too conservative, but 60-70 million is impossible.

Most of our illegal immigration comes from SOB and Asia.

Now, if you were to assume every Asian and Hispanic in the country were illegal, which they obviously aren't, there are only 60-70 million Asians and Hispanics in the United States, total, combined.
A more realistic number is the number of people here because of illegal immigration. That number may even be higher.
 
Old 05-21-2014, 05:46 PM
 
Location: San Diego
32,799 posts, read 30,034,103 times
Reputation: 17687
Quote:
Originally Posted by lvoc View Post
Again you whistle in the dark. It don't work. Farms routinely use subcontractors. All this will mean is lots of small ones and no big ones. HS swipes one start another. You simply have to get in there and figure out who is running it and how to ever control it. Hotels can do a similar thing though as they get bigger it gets awkward.

Yes I keep bringing up the underground economy. Yes it has been around a long time and in some industries has a significant foothold. What you don't want is for it to get well enough established to become the norm as it is in some countries in Europe. And forcing working illegals off the payroll but not out of the country is just the right way to do that. And we don't force them out of the country because the task is simply too big by maybe 20 X or 30 X to be practically done.

Either get up the huge billions to deport them or make them legal. The existing case is the worst. And I see little if any support other than the limit right for even attempting the deportation.

And no they are not going to "self deport" which is a right fantasy. They simply go underground and suffers a little more. And they can out wait us...if all else fails.
If someone goes to their grave living that kind of life? I'm ok with that. I didn't put them there. It's not the US taxpayer's problem to take care of criminals from other Countries.
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