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Old 12-14-2007, 04:51 PM
 
Location: California
3,432 posts, read 2,156,404 times
Reputation: 138

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Synopsis View Post
I respectfully disagree with the illegals being chiefly to blame. Yes, they came over the border illegally. However, they understand the laws (at least up until now) are being subverted by our politicians and our corporations. The SOURCE of all this is the plentiful jobs that pay more and turn the other way in regards to legal documentation. Cut off the source (i.e. punish the employers and I mean REALLY punish the employers) and the first thing that will happen is the influx of these people will slow to a trickle, and the ones here will go back home, eventually. Most of them love their home country, as anyone would, and when they find it is not a honeybucket of employment over here they will go back, or at least most of them will.

I'm not giving those who jump the fence a free ride, they are responsible as well. I just believe that the majority of responsibility rests with our corrupt politicians and corporate leadership. They do, after all, WANT these people here. Knock it off at the source; elect politicians that will uphold and enforce the law.
Exactly, I agree. Its the politicians fault, aka the Government.
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Old 12-14-2007, 04:55 PM
 
Location: Southern Arizona
9,308 posts, read 25,652,204 times
Reputation: 10566
Quote:
Originally Posted by mimimomx3 View Post
The illegal worker has no allegiance or respect for the US, they're loyal to another country altogether, so I can understand why they would come here to take all they can. What I CANT understand is why Americans would hire them at the expense of their fellow citizens. If no one hired them, wouldn't they just all go home????
Great question, Mimimomx . . . I blame them both equally.

The GREEDY employers need to be FINE and SLAMMERED for hiring the Illegals.

The Arrogant Illegals need to be deported for blatantly snubbing their noses at our immigration laws.
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Old 12-14-2007, 04:57 PM
 
Location: Pinal County, Arizona
25,107 posts, read 34,357,433 times
Reputation: 4893
Quote:
Originally Posted by ProLogic View Post
You just said they should be blamed for coming into this country and applying for a job. Makes no logical sense.

PL - think logically -

If they did not come into the country, they could not have applied for the job.

The FIRST element of lawlessness was the illegal entering the country ILLEGALLY.

The SECOND element of lawlessness was the employer giving them employment -

Hope that clears up you misunderstanding
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Old 12-14-2007, 04:57 PM
 
Location: California
3,432 posts, read 2,156,404 times
Reputation: 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greatday View Post
PL - think logically -

If they did not come into the country, they could not have applied for the job.

The FIRST element of lawlessness was the illegal entering the country ILLEGALLY.

The SECOND element of lawlessness was the employer giving them employment -

Hope that clears up you misunderstanding
I think your post and this thread is really going around in circles.
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Old 12-14-2007, 05:01 PM
 
Location: Pinal County, Arizona
25,107 posts, read 34,357,433 times
Reputation: 4893
Quote:
Originally Posted by ProLogic View Post
I think your post and this thread is really going around in circles.
What is the title of this thread PL?

Who do I "blame more"? I gave the answer - in order

1) the illegal immigrant

2) the employer

Can you comprehend this now?
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Old 12-14-2007, 05:03 PM
 
Location: California
3,432 posts, read 2,156,404 times
Reputation: 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greatday View Post
What is the title of this thread PL?

Who do I "blame more"? I gave the answer - in order

1) the illegal immigrant

2) the employer

Can you comprehend this now?
Don't treat me like I don't understand the title or meaning of this thread, I already know. And everything you just asked me I had already explained in my OP.
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Old 12-14-2007, 05:07 PM
 
Location: Pinal County, Arizona
25,107 posts, read 34,357,433 times
Reputation: 4893
Quote:
Originally Posted by ProLogic View Post
Don't treat me like I don't understand the title or meaning of this thread, I already know. And everything you just asked me I had already explained in my OP.
PL - you asked a question

I gave an answer.

Let me give you a law school lesson (I learned a long time ago) - it is something that a lot of lawyers make mistakes with - and it was this mistake, by itself, that resulted in OJ Simpson being found not guilty:

Never ask a question (of a witness) that you don't already know the answer to
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Old 12-14-2007, 05:10 PM
 
Location: California
3,432 posts, read 2,156,404 times
Reputation: 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greatday View Post
PL - you asked a question

I gave an answer.

Let me give you a law school lesson (I learned a long time ago) - it is something that a lot of lawyers make mistakes with - and it was this mistake, by itself, that resulted in OJ Simpson being found not guilty:

Never ask a question (of a witness) that you don't already know the answer to

Quote:
I think your post and this thread is really going around in circles.
That doesn't sound like a question to me. On the contrary, you can criticize my OP.
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Old 12-14-2007, 05:14 PM
 
3,712 posts, read 5,708,999 times
Reputation: 1284
Quote:
Originally Posted by Synopsis View Post
I respectfully disagree with the illegals being chiefly to blame. Yes, they came over the border illegally. However, they understand the laws (at least up until now) are being subverted by our politicians and our corporations. The SOURCE of all this is the plentiful jobs that pay more and turn the other way in regards to legal documentation. Cut off the source (i.e. punish the employers and I mean REALLY punish the employers) and the first thing that will happen is the influx of these people will slow to a trickle, and the ones here will go back home, eventually. Most of them love their home country, as anyone would, and when they find it is not a honeybucket of employment over here they will go back, or at least most of them will.

I'm not giving those who jump the fence a free ride, they are responsible as well. I just believe that the majority of responsibility rests with our corrupt politicians and corporate leadership. They do, after all, WANT these people here. Knock it off at the source; elect politicians that will uphold and enforce the law.
In general, adults in the US are held responsible for their actions. There are very specific circumstances where adults are not held responsible their actions, such a mental illness or inability to understand that they have done something wrong due to low IQ. Saying the illegals really can't be held responsible for crossing the border because our businesses and politicians cause them to be inexorably drawn across the US border like a crow to a shiny object, places them in a 'can't be held responsible' for their behavior category, too. And if they are not equipped to judge right from wrong and adjust their actions accordingly, then they clearly should not be entrusted with something as valuable as US citizenship.
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Old 12-14-2007, 07:42 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,610,630 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by andreabeth View Post
In general, adults in the US are held responsible for their actions. There are very specific circumstances where adults are not held responsible their actions, such a mental illness or inability to understand that they have done something wrong due to low IQ. Saying the illegals really can't be held responsible for crossing the border because our businesses and politicians cause them to be inexorably drawn across the US border like a crow to a shiny object, places them in a 'can't be held responsible' for their behavior category, too. And if they are not equipped to judge right from wrong and adjust their actions accordingly, then they clearly should not be entrusted with something as valuable as US citizenship.
I agree. Without any particular rancor, I'd have to say defending ANY group of people by essentially saying "They couldn't HELP it" is a VERY questionable tactic, particularly if the 'group' in question is an identifiable minority or 'victimized' group that already has problems with their 'image'. It feeds right into the white racists' dream of showing that 'those people' really aren't responsible adults. Works once, maybe, but what happens NEXT TIME the 'group' wants to be taken seriously?

A case in point, (if memory serves) is that of Damian Williams, who gained notareity in the LA "Rodney King" riots as one of the rioters who pulled white trucker Reginald Denny out of his truck at an intersection and nearly sromped him to death for being white. Williams was caught on tape doing a "victory dance" on top of the prostrate, unconscious trucker.

During his trial, his attorney basically used the defense "Williams was a poor, angry, deluded. unsophisticated black kid, overcome by the 'emotion' of the day, and just 'couldn't help himself' ". Williams was released on "time served". (He's now doing LIFE for au unrelated murder committed in '03). My point is, though the 'he couldn'y help it' defense got him OFF, it certainly was no help to OTHER young blacks. It came very close to saying that "young blacks just can't HELP how they act".

The same rule applies to illegals. Saying they "can't resist" the urge to break the law may come back to haunt all of them. It's certainly no compliment to Mexicans in general, (who provide the large majority of our illegals), most of whom I believe CAN 'help' what they do, and who DO know right from wrong.

Beyond that, I will CERTAINLY agree that we Americans have sent a message that we don't take our OWN laws seriously---so perhaps the illegals do get a break on that point. They're hungry, and can hardly be expected to 'quibble' about laws that they see US ignoring.
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