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View Poll Results: What should we do in the short term about the illegal immigrant children sitting in detention?
If they have American Families, let them stay 11 6.40%
Deport them immediately to Mexico (Where they crossed) 49 28.49%
Deport them immediately to their home country 103 59.88%
If they don't have American family put them in foster care in the USA 9 5.23%
Voters: 172. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 07-04-2014, 05:53 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
How is self-deportation a myth? They essentially "self-deported" from their own countries where they know the language and culture and are legal. They will leave when conditions here aren't so much to their liking. If they're not given food stamps and housing vouchers and completely free health care, how many illegals do you think would want to stay here and pay our enormous hospital bills when they have national health care back home that they can afford? Without food stamps, how is an illiterate illegal going to afford $9 a pound beef?
They voluntarily immigrated. Make them an offer...$15,000 a year to return to Mexico. If you are right it does not cost us anything. Simply reroute all the welfare money. Then all you got to do is keep new ones from entering.

Quote:
Cutting them all off welfare would be a very good start -- you get rid of the most useless illegals that way, the ones costing us money. Then go after the employers of illegals -- no one is going to care that those greedy cheap labor types are socked with big fines. Those illegals might work but they're committing identity theft and felony document fraud -- they need to go and they cost us jobs.
Virtually all money will be on the behalf of American citizen children. So you have figured a way to decide which American children get welfare and which don't?

Quote:
Then there may still be some illegals left. They may lay low enough and manage to work off the books not committing felony document fraud and not committing other crimes like driving without licenses and insurance.

It's like any other criminals -- enforcement is never all or nothing -- just because you can't deport all 30 million that are here doesn't mean you can't deport them as they make their presence known and you can certain cut them off the food stamps, WIC and other government handouts that are the real reason many are here. No one says we can't catch and punish rapists just because we can't catch and punish them all. No one says let everyone fail to pay income taxes just because some will manage to never pay them and not get caught.
Sure there will be some left. Virtually all. And you have no way to cut them off from anything - as it all comes through legal children. And virtually all will do without any welfare as most of the workers do now.

You have been spouting this nonsense so long I think you may actually believe it. You really should try plucking the daisy...much better chance than your other approaches.

 
Old 07-04-2014, 06:10 PM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,772,681 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lvoc View Post
They voluntarily immigrated. Make them an offer...$15,000 a year to return to Mexico. If you are right it does not cost us anything. Simply reroute all the welfare money. Then all you got to do is keep new ones from entering.



Virtually all money will be on the behalf of American citizen children. So you have figured a way to decide which American children get welfare and which don't?



Sure there will be some left. Virtually all. And you have no way to cut them off from anything - as it all comes through legal children. And virtually all will do without any welfare as most of the workers do now.

You have been spouting this nonsense so long I think you may actually believe it. You really should try plucking the daisy...much better chance than your other approaches.
Your first sentence almost makes sense -- I could see giving them a lesser amount to help them get started back home -- Mexico in fact did have some program for it's returning campesinos, it would give them money to get a couple cows or pigs and a patch of land, one of my illegal neighbors was deported for getting into a bar fight back then and he decided to just stay in Mexico and take advantage of that program.

Yes --- all American children with legal or citizen parents can qualify for welfare -- limit the time on it please but no child of an illegal should qualify for welfare -- there's a good opportunity right there to pack her up and head her out. Give her a choice to take her baby home with her or abandon it in the USA like so many say they will. Abandoned babies will have to be kept in foster homes where they will learn English or be adopted by American families where they will also learn English and so have a much better chance to make it in life.

Like I said -- cut off the welfare handouts which is the main reason they're coming and you'll get rid of the worst ones. Millions of them. Then go after the employers of the others and shut them down with big fines --- many will dump their illegals and hire American citizens if that were to happen --- or they'd bring in H2A visa legal guest workers.
 
Old 07-04-2014, 06:20 PM
 
Location: Pa
20,310 posts, read 18,900,571 times
Reputation: 6517
Quote:
Originally Posted by lvoc View Post
The 1986 amnesty was to be followed by a rigid enforcement of the immigration laws. Never happened. Both Republicans and Democrats ignored the whole thing and we started a new wave.

We could easily do that again. But hopefully will not again commit the same error.

All takes new laws and costs money. You have no ability to pass new laws or spend money.

Employer laws simply force the illegals off the legal payroll. I have shown you repeatedly how well that works in Las Vegas. But you won't believe it until you repeat it for yourself.

We have been on this course for 28 years. We have to do it differently or we will soon have 20 million.

Is that what you guys really want? Twenty Million?
You haven't shown squat. You talked about it. As it stands the laws have no teeth because employers can claim they didn't know.
Enforce the laws. Enforce the laws enforce the laws.
Why is OSHA effective? because the laws are enforced.
Rewarding illegals with an amnesty does nothing but lure more.
Take away what they want and they will leave.
As far as LV goes show me how they have cracked down on illegals and those who employ them. If they did the fed would be all over them just like they have done to every other city, town or state that has tried.

Amnesty has been tried and it has failed.
 
Old 07-04-2014, 06:23 PM
 
12,973 posts, read 12,159,662 times
Reputation: 5398
Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
Your first sentence almost makes sense -- I could see giving them a lesser amount to help them get started back home -- Mexico in fact did have some program for it's returning campesinos, it would give them money to get a couple cows or pigs and a patch of land, one of my illegal neighbors was deported for getting into a bar fight back then and he decided to just stay in Mexico and take advantage of that program.
Not once...annually for at least a decade or so. Doesn't cost anything so why not make sure they stay there.

Quote:
Yes --- all American children with legal or citizen parents can qualify for welfare -- limit the time on it please but no child of an illegal should qualify for welfare -- there's a good opportunity right there to pack her up and head her out. Give her a choice to take her baby home with her or abandon it in the USA like so many say they will. Abandoned babies will have to be kept in foster homes where they will learn English or be adopted by American families where they will also learn English and so have a much better chance to make it in life.
You have to change the law. And that change will likely be a very difficult one. In my opinion you will not get it to fly ever and if you did it would get thrown out on a due process Constitutional violation. You might sell a legal guardian or such. But no you won't get it cut off.

Quote:
Like I said -- cut off the welfare handouts which is the main reason they're coming and you'll get rid of the worst ones. Millions of them. Then go after the employers of the others and shut them down with big fines --- many will dump their illegals and hire American citizens if that were to happen --- or they'd bring in H2A visa legal guest workers.
So basically all you want is to make a change that will never fly and would be unconstitutional if passed.

Do love the way you have the whole process thought through. Stick to the Daisy.
 
Old 07-04-2014, 06:24 PM
NCN
 
Location: NC/SC Border Patrol
21,136 posts, read 21,154,931 times
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These poll results are certainly different than the ones you see reported on TV.
 
Old 07-04-2014, 06:36 PM
 
12,973 posts, read 12,159,662 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman01 View Post
You haven't shown squat. You talked about it. As it stands the laws have no teeth because employers can claim they didn't know.
Of course the law has no teeth. That was my whole point. And you get forceful in agreeing? So you have to change the law...but you cannot. There is huge resistance to any "accidental" violation. And with cause. You really think it is a violation if the guy has good papers and they pass everify?

Quote:
Enforce the laws. Enforce the laws enforce the laws.
Why is OSHA effective? because the laws are enforced.
OSHA is generally enforceable. The illegal employment statutes are not. And OSHA is really regulatory rules and not statutes. And it is often fought about real hard.

Quote:
Rewarding illegals with an amnesty does nothing but lure more.
Take away what they want and they will leave.
As far as LV goes show me how they have cracked down on illegals and those who employ them. If they did the fed would be all over them just like they have done to every other city, town or state that has tried.

Amnesty has been tried and it has failed.
Little government action in LV because there are no big employers who employ illegals. And running down construction crews is non rewarding to the government. And again it has the highest illegal population of any large city in the US. So it certainly rates immense government interest.

And driving them out has been tried for 28 years and has failed. So what now.
 
Old 07-04-2014, 06:55 PM
 
Location: Pa
20,310 posts, read 18,900,571 times
Reputation: 6517
Quote:
Originally Posted by lvoc View Post
Of course the law has no teeth. That was my whole point. And you get forceful in agreeing? So you have to change the law...but you cannot. There is huge resistance to any "accidental" violation. And with cause. You really think it is a violation if the guy has good papers and they pass everify?



OSHA is generally enforceable. The illegal employment statutes are not. And OSHA is really regulatory rules and not statutes. And it is often fought about real hard.



Little government action in LV because there are no big employers who employ illegals. And running down construction crews is non rewarding to the government. And again it has the highest illegal population of any large city in the US. So it certainly rates immense government interest.

And driving them out has been tried for 28 years and has failed. So what now.
As you said the laws haven't been enforced. That means no real attempt has been made at driving them out.
How does granting an amnesty help the problem? How does rewarding illegals help the problem?
Ok we do amnesty then what? Then we rinse and repeat.
Or
The people speak and they are especially with this latest surge and we elect politicians who will enforce the law, who will act. 1 thing a politician wants more than illegal wants amnesty is re-elected. That is the power.
Obama had it made. We fired the GOP and he wasted it by not listening to the people.
The immigration issue has enjoyed years of Obama sugar coating it. Parading engineer on stage and representing her as the average illegal. great marketing has delivered results. The reality is the average illegal is his aunt. That is who he should parade on stage and say this is the face of illegal immigration. If he were even semi honest he would.
 
Old 07-04-2014, 07:03 PM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,772,681 times
Reputation: 22168
Quote:
Originally Posted by lvoc View Post
Of course the law has no teeth. That was my whole point. And you get forceful in agreeing? So you have to change the law...but you cannot. There is huge resistance to any "accidental" violation. And with cause. You really think it is a violation if the guy has good papers and they pass everify?



OSHA is generally enforceable. The illegal employment statutes are not. And OSHA is really regulatory rules and not statutes. And it is often fought about real hard.



Little government action in LV because there are no big employers who employ illegals. And running down construction crews is non rewarding to the government. And again it has the highest illegal population of any large city in the US. So it certainly rates immense government interest.

And driving them out has been tried for 28 years and has failed. So what now.
They have NOT been driving them out for 28 years -- they've done absolutely very little to enforce the laws. A border fence would have helped -- they never did that. Deporting illegals instead of handing them welfare handouts would have worked very well.

Promsing anyone who gets over here illegal amnesty only encourages them to come. And DACA is now proving to be disasterous. Smuggle in babies and children and be given amnesty and welfare handouts the rest of their lives is a purely stupid policy.
 
Old 07-04-2014, 07:07 PM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,772,681 times
Reputation: 22168
Another thing that actually works and i've seen it work is deporting them. One of my illegal neighors got deported when they found him selling pot outside some bar, he came right back within 3 days, he got deported again when a police recognized him and he came right on back. Then he got deported again -- but they held him in that Otero detention center for months before sending him back -- but when they sent him home that time, they took him to another part of the border at least 1000 miles away. Even though he was first boasting that he would be back, he hasn't made an appearance yet and some say he's back in Juarez living with relatives and probably working at a maquila.

If you make it less convenient for them, they do think twice.
 
Old 07-04-2014, 07:09 PM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,772,681 times
Reputation: 22168
Deportation works -- but take them far from their entry point -- then they get back home with some difficulty and tell everyone "no vale la pena" and that is great advertising not to come. If you let them stay they call home and boast to everyone how great things are, how they're now rolling in the money and others decide to come.
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