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Old 07-02-2014, 01:19 PM
 
Location: London
70 posts, read 53,059 times
Reputation: 71

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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbell75 View Post
No it wasn't. It was founded by immigrants but they were not here ILLEGALLY. From 1892-1954, immigrants came into the US thru Ellis Island in NY. They paid an $18 fee and were required to prove their identities, answer a series of questions, find a friend or relative who could vouch for them, and were scanned for physical ailments. They weren't sneaking across the border illegally, read up on some history.
Most natives would have called them illegals. I guess I could use the "undocumented alien" term. But here there is something I have a problem with. Until 1875 it was OK for anyone to just go to US, and actually in most places in Europe it wasn't a big deal to move around up to late 19th century and early of 20th. Suddenly, because of some crazy wars, politics and increased nationalism we all now have to carry all kind of IDs and take the idea of "they crossed the border for a new life, oh the calamity!" as the norm. Imagine a future when we are all supposed to have some machine on our lungs to meter the oxygen and tax us accordingly. We would think of it as impossible, but in such a future people born then would moan about those who sneak the device outside their lung, daring not to pay like anyone else. I hate taking things for granted. To see how ridiculous is to allow a Gov in the process of curbing immigration (I found it accidentally after 5 minutes of googling):

Immigration Act of 1918 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Pretty much anyone can spot how politicians only care to keep their power structure, while trashing some 1st Amendment. Plus many of you agree how immigration/naturalization policies are so good to get the right votes.
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Old 07-02-2014, 01:23 PM
 
18,107 posts, read 16,444,002 times
Reputation: 9747
Make the White House an illegal housing station. There are plenty of extra bedrooms and I'm sure they'd be quite capable of picking crops in Michelle's garden. I'll bet they're even planning on fostering some of the youngest parentless immigrants.
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Old 07-02-2014, 01:41 PM
 
31,471 posts, read 14,559,147 times
Reputation: 8348
Quote:
Originally Posted by AKAdragon View Post
Most natives would have called them illegals. I guess I could use the "undocumented alien" term. But here there is something I have a problem with. Until 1875 it was OK for anyone to just go to US, and actually in most places in Europe it wasn't a big deal to move around up to late 19th century and early of 20th. Suddenly, because of some crazy wars, politics and increased nationalism we all now have to carry all kind of IDs and take the idea of "they crossed the border for a new life, oh the calamity!" as the norm. Imagine a future when we are all supposed to have some machine on our lungs to meter the oxygen and tax us accordingly. We would think of it as impossible, but in such a future people born then would moan about those who sneak the device outside their lung, daring not to pay like anyone else. I hate taking things for granted. To see how ridiculous is to allow a Gov in the process of curbing immigration (I found it accidentally after 5 minutes of googling):

Immigration Act of 1918 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Pretty much anyone can spot how politicians only care to keep their power structure, while trashing some 1st Amendment. Plus many of you agree how immigration/naturalization policies are so good to get the right votes.
There was no such thing as "natives" to this country/continent. Everyone's ancestors migrated from somewhere else. Population growth and the depletion of our natural and social resources is the reason that legal immigration is limited. Yet we still take in over 1 million legal immigrants a year. You cannot compare the past to the present.
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Old 07-02-2014, 02:09 PM
 
Location: London
70 posts, read 53,059 times
Reputation: 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldglory View Post
There was no such thing as "natives" to this country/continent. Everyone's ancestors migrated from somewhere else. Population growth and the depletion of our natural and social resources is the reason that legal immigration is limited. Yet we still take in over 1 million legal immigrants a year. You cannot compare the past to the present.
I don't believe the "resources" thing, I understand a lot of people feel like that. According with wikipedia, it all started with fear from the Catholics. I'm actually trying to blame the global concept of borders that created the present. Less Gov and laws anywhere would have been so much better, I think more US citizens would also emigrate. I'm also for HappyTexan's argument (no welfare), things would balance themselves much smoother.
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Old 07-02-2014, 02:32 PM
 
31,471 posts, read 14,559,147 times
Reputation: 8348
Quote:
Originally Posted by AKAdragon View Post
I don't believe the "resources" thing, I understand a lot of people feel like that. According with wikipedia, it all started with fear from the Catholics. I'm actually trying to blame the global concept of borders that created the present. Less Gov and laws anywhere would have been so much better, I think more US citizens would also emigrate. I'm also for HappyTexan's argument (no welfare), things would balance themselves much smoother.
Then remain in denial or learn what the "carrying capacity" of a nation means. It's based on natural and social resources to sustain a given population number. It also includes job availability and ariable land space. We have a shortage of all of the above. Our schools, jails and hospitals are overcrowded now. What you are advocating for is no borders and therefore no countries. Billions of people would all be settling in the nicest places. Even without a welfare state that would be a disaster. What about culture clash?

Why the remark about Catholics? We don't fear foreigners here legally but it must be controlled and diversified. We take in 1 million legal immigrants a year. So just where is this fear?
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Old 07-02-2014, 02:56 PM
 
9,901 posts, read 12,970,298 times
Reputation: 5462
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvxplorer View Post
Illegals were instrumental in busting the unions. Rightwingers should love them. Illegals grow the bottom line of business. Rightwingers should love them. What's wrong with you rightwingers, anyway.

On the flipside, liberals should hate them for hurting working Americans.

Illegal immigration. Bizzaro world extrordinaire.
I'm a leftist, but there are many liberals who care more about the "oppressed brown people" from other countries than working Americans..it's a punishment for the countries prosperity, which is the result of its evil polices. That's not even an exaggeration it's basically verbatim from some people I know.
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Old 07-02-2014, 02:58 PM
 
9,901 posts, read 12,970,298 times
Reputation: 5462
Quote:
Originally Posted by AKAdragon View Post
I don't believe the "resources" thing, I understand a lot of people feel like that. According with wikipedia, it all started with fear from the Catholics. I'm actually trying to blame the global concept of borders that created the present. Less Gov and laws anywhere would have been so much better, I think more US citizens would also emigrate. I'm also for HappyTexan's argument (no welfare), things would balance themselves much smoother.


I'd rather not see my country destroyed or turned into another 3rd world Latin American nation because of your libertarian fairy tales, sorry.
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Old 07-02-2014, 03:08 PM
 
24,843 posts, read 31,241,247 times
Reputation: 11427
Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyTexan View Post
It took 51 years for these illegals to figure out this loophole ?

Why then haven't we seen numbers like this before 2009 ?
Something else is also driving this.
The NBC affiliate in Honduras was running little ads.....that children would be given citizenship in the USA.
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Old 07-02-2014, 03:17 PM
 
Location: London
70 posts, read 53,059 times
Reputation: 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldglory View Post
Then remain in denial or learn what the "carrying capacity" of a nation means. It's based on natural and social resources to sustain a given population number. It also includes job availability and ariable land space. We have a shortage of all of the above. Our schools, jails and hospitals are overcrowded now. What you are advocating for is no borders and therefore no countries. Billions of people would all be settling in the nicest places. Even without a welfare state that would be a disaster. What about culture clash?

Why the remark about Catholics? We don't fear foreigners here legally but it must be controlled and diversified. We take in 1 million legal immigrants a year. So just where is this fear?
The Catholics thing I got from History of immigration to the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Obviously, even if I advocate for no countries and no borders, I don't think it can be done magically over night without some harsh consequences in the first generation, it would require several steps. I'm sure there are some resources US is short of, but most of them are by no means in short:

- a few years ago a documentary stated your agriculture produces food for 2bil people with the current arable land. Even more is available for sure, not that I advocate for trashing everything for Agriculture. If you consider the welfare from the state for agriculture (subsidizing), a lot more potential in developing countries is held back because they cannot compete with subsidized stuff coming from "developed" countries.
- I don't know what a social resource is, I guess retirement money and stuff like that: they are needed because we live in a world with crappy inflationary (by Govs) currencies and we have little ability to save on our own.
- Jobs: their availability is a matter of percentage and varies for all sort of reasons. More freedom of movement and less welfare should kick people into being creative about what to do with their life.
- Schools: no regulation in private area, no enforcement by Gov for licensing and so on, so more efficient curriculum is developed, no need for everybody to stay in school so many years just so they can work in McDonalds or do haircuts.
- Jails: do I have to even go there?

...

And so on.

Again, I'm not saying to change everything over night, the current situation is just so messed up. And it got like that because of perpetuation of things like nationalism, war, borders, welfare and so on. Reversing these things and thinking behind them, easing the borders and global economy could lead to what I'm advocating. I think there were bigger culture clashes in the past that there are now.
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Old 07-02-2014, 03:47 PM
 
25,060 posts, read 22,101,322 times
Reputation: 11576
Quote:
Originally Posted by dman72 View Post
I'd rather not see my country destroyed or turned into another 3rd world Latin American nation because of your libertarian fairy tales, sorry.
And, unbeknownst to you, that's exactly the platform of the Libertarian Party and the Libertarian thinktank, the CATO Institute. They argue for the total abolition of the welfare state, and for the borders to be completely open like in the Ellis Island days. A vote for a "Libertarian" is a vote for open borders. Keep that in mind next time any one of you spout nonsense like this country needs Libertarianism to save it
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