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Old 07-25-2014, 08:05 PM
 
2,485 posts, read 1,764,182 times
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Immigrants come here for many things. The biggest draws are
One. Kids born here are American citizens with a support system and benefits. Our 14th amendment is here to stay

Two. Job opportunities. Employers want the best, brightest, cheapest.

It looks like most people on this board prefer some level of restriction on immigration.

We won't be able to do that for the following reasons:
1. We have framed our country as a nation of immigrants and this moral high ground narrative about immigration. Despite being angry, most Americans don't speak their mind because of fear. Those who do are viewed as racists or the extreme right wing. Such a narrative was brought on by the same people who don't like it as well. But we have created an established political ideology that is difficult to change.
2. Immigration benefits both parties in different ways. The democrats see poor immigrants as a sure voting block for them. More people will depend on the government and support democratic policies. Democratic leaders and celebrities are wealthy and don't personally suffer from this. The republicans are worried that their states might turn blue. But they like cheap labor too much. Their business friends will go after them with pitchforks if they get real serious about undocumented immigration.
3. The demographics of many states in the sunbelt and beyond are already changing. Many citizens are recent immigrants who have plans to bring family here. Public opinions will remain divided. I gather many Americans on this board are native born without close ties with people in another country. But you are quickly shrinking as a population percentage because we have been adding lots of people. Take a look at schools, especially elementary schools. The majority of kids are sometimes immigrant children. They have an inherent affection toward immigration and they are relatively new still. They share a lot with their country of origin. Reducing immigration will be seen as anti immigrant and scare many people away from voicing their opinions. Anti immigrant sentiments are going to be a small fraction of "extremists."
4. The workplace demographics are also shifting tremendously. The high tech industry has become an international country club. If you stay at their dinner parties, you meet mostly highly educated affluent people. It can seem great. But it's a very small fantasy land compared to the rest of america. Many companies are already very international, and decisions are made in that mindset. A foreigner in leadership position may recommend more people they know from another country, for example. Once these companies become global, they will not become local again.
5. Many foreign workers possess practical skills. They focused on career development while Americans drifted. This means that the competition is strong, and the winners are going to be from not just America.

The need to take care of the immigrant poor will triumph the shrinking white middle class.

The need for American businesses to stay competitive also triumphs the shrinking white middle class.

The American middle class is pulled from both ends.
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Old 07-25-2014, 08:29 PM
 
11,485 posts, read 5,507,878 times
Reputation: 9861
But we are not "a nation of immigrants". Most people were born here.

You are forgetting a big part of the long-term picture --- Mainly, we are running out of potable water and buildable land. We also have millions of suffering Americans who are either underemployed or unemployed. Currently, it is shown that recent immigrants are most likely to find employment over American citizens.

So...I guess that you are saying that we should lie down, roll over and wave the white flag of surrender instead of reducing legal immigration and getting rid of illegal aliens?

If you want good quality of life and sustainable resources, then we can't keep going on the way we are without descending into third world status ourselves. I don't know about you but I want better than third world status for my descendants.
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Old 07-25-2014, 10:20 PM
 
Location: Houston, TX
2,240 posts, read 2,666,463 times
Reputation: 1172
Quote:
Originally Posted by BOS2IAD View Post
But we are not "a nation of immigrants". Most people were born here.

You are forgetting a big part of the long-term picture --- Mainly, we are running out of potable water and buildable land. We also have millions of suffering Americans who are either underemployed or unemployed. Currently, it is shown that recent immigrants are most likely to find employment over American citizens.

So...I guess that you are saying that we should lie down, roll over and wave the white flag of surrender instead of reducing legal immigration and getting rid of illegal aliens?

If you want good quality of life and sustainable resources, then we can't keep going on the way we are without descending into third world status ourselves. I don't know about you but I want better than third world status for my descendants.

LOL. You sound like the folks back in the 1800s, 1920s, 30s, 40s..etc.. EXACTLY THE SAME.

"Irish Need Not Apply"...wow.

Let me tell you something, if YOU are worried about competing for a job against an undocumented person, you have serious issues you need to fix in your life. For folks who find themselves in that situation, I would recommend job training to attain new skills, going back to school and earning a degree.

That's what your family must've said when they came to this country I bet... "I don't know about you but I want better than third world status for my descendants".
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Old 07-25-2014, 10:36 PM
 
11,485 posts, read 5,507,878 times
Reputation: 9861
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYer75 View Post
LOL. You sound like the folks back in the 1800s, 1920s, 30s, 40s..etc.. EXACTLY THE SAME.

"Irish Need Not Apply"...wow.

Let me tell you something, if YOU are worried about competing for a job against an undocumented person, you have serious issues you need to fix in your life. For folks who find themselves in that situation, I would recommend job training to attain new skills, going back to school and earning a degree.

That's what your family must've said when they came to this country I bet... "I don't know about you but I want better than third world status for my descendants".
Let me tell you something --- Plenty of honest companies in the construction business lost their livelihoods because they couldn't compete with sleazy contractors who paid under the table and evaded taxes. At one time meatpacking and poultry plants paid enough to propel their workers into the lower middle class. Once we got infested with illegals, Americans got displaced. And guess what? A few years back when ICE was allowed to do raids, a Swift plant in CO lost their illegal employees and Americans lined up that very same day for those jobs. The same thing happened when Howard Industries in MS was raided. Some Americans drove 40 miles just for a chance at a job.

You can't be seriously comparing immigration 100 years ago to immigration today! 100 years or more ago, we had room to expand. Plus, we were largely an agrarian and industrial society. Illiterate people---both Americans and immigrants---could easily find work. There was also no welfare so everybody knew that it was either sink or swim.

My family said no such thing. Why would they? Immigrants who came here came to work and build this country into what it is today. If anything, they wanted it to continue to get better and better. Besides, some of my family was forcibly brought to The New World in Slave ships. Not all arrived here at their own volition.

You really need to educate yourself on this issue. Plus, you need to have empathy for the millions of suffering underemployed and unemployed American citizens. Also, you need to have empathy for those who have been victims of ID theft by illegals. Did you know that the Puerto Rican government had to take the unprecedented step of declaring all Puerto Rico issued birth certificates null and void because so many Puerto Ricans became victims of ID theft by illegals? Now when native-born Puerto Ricans need a copy of their birth certificate, they have to jump through hoops to get a certified and secured copy.
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Old 07-25-2014, 10:43 PM
 
Location: Houston, TX
2,240 posts, read 2,666,463 times
Reputation: 1172
Quote:
Originally Posted by BOS2IAD View Post
Let me tell you something --- Plenty of honest companies in the construction business lost their livelihoods because they couldn't compete with sleazy contractors who paid under the table and evaded taxes. At one time meatpacking and poultry plants paid enough to propel their workers into the lower middle class. Once we got infested with illegals, Americans got displaced. And guess what? A few years back when ICE was allowed to do raids, a Swift plant in CO lost their illegal employees and Americans lined up that very same day for those jobs. The same thing happened when Howard Industries in MS was raided. Some Americans drove 40 miles just for a chance at a job.

You can't be seriously comparing immigration 100 years ago to immigration today! 100 years or more ago, we had room to expand. Plus, we were largely an agrarian and industrial society. Illiterate people---both Americans and immigrants---could easily find work. There was also no welfare so everybody knew that it was either sink or swim.

My family said no such thing. Why would they? Immigrants who came here came to work and build this country into what it is today. If anything, they wanted it to continue to get better and better. Besides, some of my family was forcibly brought to The New World in Slave ships. Not all arrived here at their own volition.

You really need to educate yourself on this issue. Plus, you need to have empathy for the millions of suffering underemployed and unemployed American citizens. Also, you need to have empathy for those who have been victims of ID theft by illegals. Did you know that the Puerto Rican government had to take the unprecedented step of declaring all Puerto Rico issued birth certificates null and void because so many Puerto Ricans became victims of ID theft by illegals? Now when native-born Puerto Ricans need a copy of their birth certificate, they have to jump through hoops to get a certified and secured copy.

Americans want to be paid more than the work is worth. Fact. They want 40k a year to do manual labor that requires no education. Not gonna happen.

So you are saying immigrants of today do not work hard and contribute to the success of this country? That's not a nice thing to say!

Yeah...ID theft. Bad stuff isn't it.

If these folks could get work permission or seasonal work and other types of work, this probably wouldn't be an issue. Yup...reform seems to come to mind again.
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Old 07-25-2014, 11:44 PM
 
Location: Las Vegas,Nevada
9,427 posts, read 5,522,440 times
Reputation: 1530
Quote:
Originally Posted by BOS2IAD View Post
But we are not "a nation of immigrants". Most people were born here.

You are forgetting a big part of the long-term picture --- Mainly, we are running out of potable water and buildable land. We also have millions of suffering Americans who are either underemployed or unemployed. Currently, it is shown that recent immigrants are most likely to find employment over American citizens.

So...I guess that you are saying that we should lie down, roll over and wave the white flag of surrender instead of reducing legal immigration and getting rid of illegal aliens?

If you want good quality of life and sustainable resources, then we can't keep going on the way we are without descending into third world status ourselves. I don't know about you but I want better than third world status for my descendants.
When a nuke is set off or some new virus comes along, trust me this nation will be secured..

We can restore santiy to immigration..And if we have to use force..So be it.

We wont, because that future will never happen..
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Old 07-25-2014, 11:50 PM
 
11,485 posts, read 5,507,878 times
Reputation: 9861
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYer75 View Post
Americans want to be paid more than the work is worth. Fact. They want 40k a year to do manual labor that requires no education. Not gonna happen.

So you are saying immigrants of today do not work hard and contribute to the success of this country? That's not a nice thing to say!

Yeah...ID theft. Bad stuff isn't it.

If these folks could get work permission or seasonal work and other types of work, this probably wouldn't be an issue. Yup...reform seems to come to mind again.

I love how you twist words!

I'm talking about 100 years ago when immigrants and Americans built this country into what it is today. They were the ones building the bridges, the subway tunnels and the ones who, for example, rolled up their sleeves and rebuilt Chicago after the fire. Not only did they rebuild it but they made it better.

Legal immigrants are welcomed as they are the ones who obey the rules and patiently await their turn to come here, with some waiting years in refugee camps.

Illegal aliens are NOT welcome and have no business being here.

FYI, farmers have a visa program that has no caps on it. We also have a temporary guest worker program. If someone can't get in by using one of these visa programs, then too bad.

We don't need reform. We just need to secure the border and adhere to the laws that are on the books.

Yup. ID theft is "bad stuff". So is stealing jobs, sneaking across a border or overstaying a visa.
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Old 07-25-2014, 11:50 PM
 
Location: Las Vegas,Nevada
9,427 posts, read 5,522,440 times
Reputation: 1530
Quote:
Originally Posted by BOS2IAD View Post
Let me tell you something --- Plenty of honest companies in the construction business lost their livelihoods because they couldn't compete with sleazy contractors who paid under the table and evaded taxes. At one time meatpacking and poultry plants paid enough to propel their workers into the lower middle class. Once we got infested with illegals, Americans got displaced. And guess what? A few years back when ICE was allowed to do raids, a Swift plant in CO lost their illegal employees and Americans lined up that very same day for those jobs. The same thing happened when Howard Industries in MS was raided. Some Americans drove 40 miles just for a chance at a job.

You can't be seriously comparing immigration 100 years ago to immigration today! 100 years or more ago, we had room to expand. Plus, we were largely an agrarian and industrial society. Illiterate people---both Americans and immigrants---could easily find work. There was also no welfare so everybody knew that it was either sink or swim.

My family said no such thing. Why would they? Immigrants who came here came to work and build this country into what it is today. If anything, they wanted it to continue to get better and better. Besides, some of my family was forcibly brought to The New World in Slave ships. Not all arrived here at their own volition.


You really need to educate yourself on this issue. Plus, you need to have empathy for the millions of suffering underemployed and unemployed American citizens. Also, you need to have empathy for those who have been victims of ID theft by illegals. Did you know that the Puerto Rican government had to take the unprecedented step of declaring all Puerto Rico issued birth certificates null and void because so many Puerto Ricans became victims of ID theft by illegals? Now when native-born Puerto Ricans need a copy of their birth certificate, they have to jump through hoops to get a certified and secured copy.
He will ignore this, because he can not find a way to defeat it..

"Another mark of a tyrant is that he likes foreigners better than citizens, and lives with them and invites them to his table; for the one are enemies, but the Others enter into no rivalry with him."- Aristotle, "Politics" Book V I think this quote sum up what they don't care about Americans, that and they need more voters...
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Old 07-25-2014, 11:54 PM
 
Location: Las Vegas,Nevada
9,427 posts, read 5,522,440 times
Reputation: 1530
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYer75 View Post
Americans want to be paid more than the work is worth. Fact. They want 40k a year to do manual labor that requires no education. Not gonna happen.

So you are saying immigrants of today do not work hard and contribute to the success of this country? That's not a nice thing to say!

Yeah...ID theft. Bad stuff isn't it.

If these folks could get work permission or seasonal work and other types of work, this probably wouldn't be an issue. Yup...reform seems to come to mind again.
They might if illegals would not suppress wages, or many they would create a robot to do it..

Illegals are not immigrates, they are criminals who are trespassing..

When not if, but when it happens I really hope you remember you posted that..But compared to the rapists, murders, and gang members it just the tip of the iceberg.

No, they would over say their visit, or just have a anchor baby.

Nope, deportation is what comes to mind, more and more Americans are waking up and siding with sanity and the rule of law..
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Old 07-26-2014, 12:02 AM
 
11,485 posts, read 5,507,878 times
Reputation: 9861
Quote:
Originally Posted by gunlover View Post
He will ignore this, because he can not find a way to defeat it..

"Another mark of a tyrant is that he likes foreigners better than citizens, and lives with them and invites them to his table; for the one are enemies, but the Others enter into no rivalry with him."- Aristotle, "Politics" Book V I think this quote sum up what they don't care about Americans, that and they need more voters...
Of course, you are correct.

I just find it despicable when someone tells Americans who lost their jobs to illegals that it's the fault of the American

There is no defense for illegal immigration to this country---or any country in this world.
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