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Old 12-23-2007, 07:20 AM
 
4,828 posts, read 6,790,161 times
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I have observed something very interesting about the so called "anti-illegall" movement. They don't really care about the Border being secured, as long as there is no "amnesty" for the undocumented immigrants that's okay with them. Let's say the congress proposes an immigration bill to bring 300,000 troops to guard the border and implement a nation wide employer verification system and then require illegall immigrants who have been here longer than 4 years and without a criminal record to pay a fine and become legal. They will ignore ALL the good this bill will do to secure the border and control illegal immigration just because some illegall immigrants will be able to become legal and oppose this bill. Am i right or wrong on this one? Remember without compromise this problem will not and cannot be solved.
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Old 12-23-2007, 07:34 AM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,615,542 times
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The amnesty of 1986 was a mistake-------and, barring those who aid and abet the illegals-------most Americans want the borders locked.

Make it extremely difficult to immigrate here as in restore the pre 1965 immigration quota/sponsor system.
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Old 12-23-2007, 07:43 AM
 
Location: Pinal County, Arizona
25,107 posts, read 34,361,805 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blacknight04 View Post
I have observed something very interesting about the so called "anti-illegall" movement. They don't really care about the Border being secured, as long as there is no "amnesty" for the undocumented immigrants that's okay with them. Let's say the congress proposes an immigration bill to bring 300,000 troops to guard the border and implement a nation wide employer verification system and then require illegall immigrants who have been here longer than 4 years and without a criminal record to pay a fine and become legal. They will ignore ALL the good this bill will do to secure the border and control illegal immigration just because some illegall immigrants will be able to become legal and oppose this bill. Am i right or wrong on this one? Remember without compromise this problem will not and cannot be solved.
It is about border security

It is about those who choose to enter the United States illegally

Amnesty is nothing more than a reward for breaking our laws - it did not work the last time - hence, the opposition to doing it again.

No Amnesty

Protection of our Borders

Protection of our National Security

Protection of the American Worker first
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Old 12-23-2007, 08:43 AM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,699,632 times
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It does have something to do with border security and obviously drug trafficking from Mexico.

But who ever said it was only that? It's about taxes, welfare handouts, Spanish language being imposed on us, culture -- we happen to think the American culture is overall the best and want to keep it.

It's about hospitals and the huge amount of free health care being doled out, schools that require all teachers to be Spanish speaking, preferably from Mexico and of course the lowering academics.

It's about soveignty.

Now admit it - for your side it's all about the cheapest possible labor and unlimited amounts of it.
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Old 12-23-2007, 09:33 AM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,612,395 times
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No, it isn't about "border security"...I've already posted on this several times. Like many other controversial, emotional subjects, the "Border Fence" issue is surrounded by layer upon layer of double-talk and denial from all sides, both from the "anti-illegals" as well as the "pros".

The anti-illegal forces INSIST that we need a fence for National Security reasons, to keep out the "forces of evil". Right now, that's largely felt to be suicidal maniacs from the Middle East, bent upon destroying our society. While these evil people certainly DO deserve our serious vigilance, the fact is that only a tiny number of them would be needed in order to inflict enormous damage upon our society; and that these few individuals cannot be stopped by a fence. There are too many other ways for them to get in. "Keeping out terrorists" just isn't a job for a fence.

The "pro-illegal" forces, and others such as MEChA, etc., insist that "fences don't work". It would be impossible, they tell us, to patrol such a fence, and are very concerned that we don't "waste our tax money" on such folly. Someone might "tunnel under it"....or "cut through it". (Strange that they are more than ready to spend our tax money elsewhere). These folks assure us that building such a fence "wouldn't be good for ANY of us". Even the government of Mexico speaks up, reminding us that a fence would be a great insult. Funny, though, that most of these people probably have locks on their homes and cars, even though locks occasionally get 'picked'. They have locks, because locks keep people out. So do fences.

The REAL fact is, (and this is what NO ONE wants to address), that while fences can't keep out a few dozen suicidal, well-financed terrorists, a fence, properly built and properly maintained and patrolled, would CERTAINLY keep out a huge percentage of casual "trespassers". Fences DO keep people out, and millions upon milions of dollars are spent by any number of public and private entities each year, just for that purpose. Most people willing to "walk past" a signpost, would NOT be so willing to scale a 12-foot fence. Even if this stopped only 75% of the "entrants", this alone would be a HUGE number.

But we continue "skirting the issue". The anti-illegals, like ALL of us, are terrified of being labeled "racists", and "keeping out illegals" has been made a racist issue (which, 85% of the time, it is NOT).....the pro-illegals, for their part, are terrified of admitting that a fence would be a huge disincentive to a big percentage of illegals, and their worst nightmare would be that it might prove EFFECTIVE...therefore, they do us a "favor" by reminding us that "fences don't work", and that we should "save our money".

The entire issue is surrounded by such dishonesty that we seldom hear the true issue, spoken in clear terms....

PS Just as a "side-note", it would be interesting to hear from those who can explain just who built the border fences that ALREADY exist, and have, for many years. In Nogales, in Douglas/Agua Prieta, in Mexicali/Calexico, and in San Ysidro/ Tijuana, are already miles of fence, and in these places, you can easily "see" the border. Why do these fences exist, if they serve no purpose? Just a casual question...
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Old 12-23-2007, 09:52 AM
 
Location: Southern Arizona
9,308 posts, read 25,657,329 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blacknight04 View Post
I have observed something very interesting about the so called "anti-illegall" movement. They don't really care about the Border being secured, as long as there is no "amnesty" for the undocumented immigrants that's okay with them. Let's say the congress proposes an immigration bill to bring 300,000 troops to guard the border and implement a nation wide employer verification system and then require illegall immigrants who have been here longer than 4 years and without a criminal record to pay a fine and become legal. They will ignore ALL the good this bill will do to secure the border and control illegal immigration just because some illegall immigrants will be able to become legal and oppose this bill. Am i right or wrong on this one? Remember without compromise this problem will not and cannot be solved.
You are absolutely correct, Blacknight.

It is not strictly about border security!

It is about the blatant and arrogant disrespect for our Immigration Laws and our Sovereignty.
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Old 12-23-2007, 12:08 PM
 
Location: Western North Carolina
4,743 posts, read 7,535,549 times
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If our immigration laws were enforced as they are supposed to be, we wouldn't need ANY walls or fences (or the billions of tax payers dollars being swasted on them). ENFORCEMENT WORKS, as evidenced by the self-deportation of illegal aliens now packing up and leaving the state of Arizona, and "threatening" to leave other states that have decided to start enforcing our laws, withhold benefits, and hold employers and businesses accountable for hiring illegal immigrants over legal American citizens.
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Old 12-23-2007, 12:18 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,615,542 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by montanamom View Post
If our immigration laws were enforced as they are supposed to be, we wouldn't need ANY walls or fences (or the billions of tax payers dollars being swasted on them). ENFORCEMENT WORKS, as evidenced by the self-deportation of illegal aliens now packing up and leaving the state of Arizona, and "threatening" to leave other states that have decided to start enforcing our laws, withhold benefits, and hold employers and businesses accountable for hiring illegal immigrants over legal American citizens.
Me likey those kinds of 'threats'
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Old 12-23-2007, 12:22 PM
 
Location: Southern Arizona
9,308 posts, read 25,657,329 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by montanamom View Post
If our immigration laws were enforced as they are supposed to be, we wouldn't need ANY walls or fences (or the billions of tax payers dollars being swasted on them). ENFORCEMENT WORKS, as evidenced by the self-deportation of illegal aliens now packing up and leaving the state of Arizona, and "threatening" to leave other states that have decided to start enforcing our laws, withhold benefits, and hold employers and businesses accountable for hiring illegal immigrants over legal American citizens.
Excellent point, Montanamom.

Eliminate all incentives by enforcing existing laws!

Also, SERIOUSLY protecting our borders as we constantly help other countries protect theirs!
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Old 12-23-2007, 12:39 PM
 
2,432 posts, read 6,003,968 times
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I don't think we can make blanket statement about what Americans want. There are too many people that come down on all sides of the issue.

But for me, I just don't think criminals should be rewarded with amnesty for this type of behavior. What's next? Granting amnesty to burglars and rapists? The fact is illegal aliens ruin lives.

Personally, I think we need to secure the border with the military and a triple layer fence. Perhaps even put in a sort of automated defense system. Other parts of the border that are more remote could be used by the air force as a bombing range. Then federally deputize about a hundred thousand US citizens to go from door to door seizing assets and initiating deportations. Simply kick the doors in, seize their assets to cover expenses, and put the illegal aliens and their anchor babies on a cattle car to the border and toss them over the fence if necessary.

And all those Chinese illegals that are here that China simply outright refuses to take back? I'd toss them over the southern border fence as well and let the Mexican authorities deal with them.

Then as long as we have the military on the border I'd seriously consider sending them down to seize Mexico's oil fields in the Gulf. The way I figure it, Mexico has already declared war on the US costing us hundreds of billions of dollars and tens of thousands of lives. Taking Mexico's oil would simply be considered reparations. I'd also seriously consider taking the oil off of Cuba also for the same reasons.
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