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Old 12-27-2007, 11:13 AM
 
17,286 posts, read 25,022,351 times
Reputation: 8527

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guywithacause View Post
Unfortunately TRImT7 you, or one of your man forefathers, are likely the same type of unwanted garbage that was dumped to the US.
Most likely. But THEY came around back when we didn't CARE about 20 families sharing a tenement. Or universal education. Or whether a family could feed itself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guywithacause
This country was built on just that....so changing that now because it is inconvenient for you is silly, hypocritical, and goes against everything this country stands for.
What part of "that was the reality then, this is the reality now," are you not getting?

It hasn't changed because it's "inconvenient," but because we have made a concious decision as a nation to create social safety nets, etc.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Guywithacause
The Statue of Liberty..and its statement, is as strong now as it ever was.
I'm sorry, I may have missed the part in history class when George Washington comissioned the erection and construction of the statue of liberty, or where in the declaration ro independence the "message" of the statue or liberty is referenced.

Can you enlighten me? Or do you need a primer in the history of the statue of liberty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guywithacause
For better or worse you have always been and most likely always will be paying for our garbage as well as the world's garbage...as you so nicely put it (what else goes in a "refuse bin" after all.) I suggest you move to Europe then..because that is the ONLY way you will be able to succeed with your "Enough is Enough" mentality.
Then fine. Let's strip away any of the social reforms made within the past 100 years and return to your idealized American immigration past.

Unfortunately, I think if YOUR looking for tolerance in immigration AND social welfare, YOU will be the one having to move. To Canada. Like it or not, your "fellow Americans" (of all races and ethnicities, INCLUDING "hispanic") don't share your perspective.
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Old 12-27-2007, 11:53 AM
 
Location: Mott Haven
2,978 posts, read 3,122,865 times
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Trim

1-Who claims we did not care back then about 20 families sharing a tenement. These were the original ghettos and they were as unattractive then as they are now. Society did care....nobody wanted to live that way...but there were no other options for the destitute and poor coming into the cities.

2-The "that was then and this is now" mentaility does not hold water. The world has changed, as our society has, but people continue to come here for the same reasons they did for the past 400 years...to make a better life for themselves, their families, and live free. And every wave was always met with some excuse why these new immigrants should not be here, or how things have changed. Your attitude is nothing new...you are just using new excuses...as did everyone before you.

Furthermore, this society was always about creating a safe, equal, positive, free social construct where everyone was welcome. That was 500 years ago..and that mentality has not changed. As I said....you are just using new excuses to continue the blame game.

3-As for the Statue of Liberty Statement: "Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

That statement reflects why your forefathers were allowed to come into this country..and why the same poor "garbage" that you are intent on keeping out is still coming. Nothing has changed as this country is, and always has been, about that. If you do not agree with, or can tolerate it, maybe this country is not for you? Consider yourself enlightened.

4-Becuase I say we, as a country, have the moral obligation to assist the poor, and we also welcome the world into our home (the rich, poor, and everyone in between), how does that mean we are stripping away the social reforms within the past 100 years? It was due to many of these successive waves of immigrants that we even have many of the social reforms that you cherish!

We already have tolerance in immigration...the whole country is immigrants! Some have just been here longer than others. As for tolerance of social welfare, yep..we have had that for many years also...and will continue to have those for the foreseebale future, not because it is bad for the country..but because it is good for the country.

You are mixing up exploitation of immigration and social welfare with the true vision of each. The exploitation is the problem...immigration and social welfare are not. Since you are unwilling, or unable, to seperate the two....then this conversation is pointless.

At the end of the day...immigration, support programs, greed, exploitation, and power are what this country is about and has always been about...and its what has made it the overwhelming success and super power of the world.
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Old 12-27-2007, 01:02 PM
 
17,286 posts, read 25,022,351 times
Reputation: 8527
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guywithacause View Post
Trim

1-Who claims we did not care back then about 20 families sharing a tenement. These were the original ghettos and they were as unattractive then as they are now. Society did care....nobody wanted to live that way...but there were no other options for the destitute and poor coming into the cities.
"We" cared - but the "government" did not. No housing vouchers, no zoning codes, no health and safety regulations, nada.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greatbasinguide
2-The "that was then and this is now" mentaility does not hold water. The world has changed, as our society has, but people continue to come here for the same reasons they did for the past 400 years...to make a better life for themselves, their families, and live free. And every wave was always met with some excuse why these new immigrants should not be here, or how things have changed. Your attitude is nothing new...you are just using new excuses...as did everyone before you.
If "my" "excuse" is insufficient, then tackle WHY my excuse is insufficient. How do YOU propose to guarantee a decent standard of living for an unchecked amount of the world's poor, while maintaining economic dominance and competitiveness?

NO country can sustain that. History has no example for you to fall back on.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Guywithacause
Furthermore, this society was always about creating a safe, equal, positive, free social construct where everyone was welcome. That was 500 years ago..and that mentality has not changed. As I said....you are just using new excuses to continue the blame game.
Are we talking about the same United States? Home of slavery, indentured servitude, etc.?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guywithacause
3-As for the Statue of Liberty Statement: "Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
Thanks wikipedia.

Quote:
Originally Posted by guywithacause
That statement reflects why your forefathers were allowed to come into this country..and why the same poor "garbage" that you are intent on keeping out is still coming. Nothing has changed as this country is, and always has been, about that. If you do not agree with, or can tolerate it, maybe this country is not for you? Consider yourself enlightened.
Ah, but how shortsighted and un-nuanced you are, for all your "enlightenment."

MANY immigrants, including many illegals, come here for the same reasons that immigrants of old came - the desire to cast off the yoke of the old country, to join the American experiment, prosper, etc. etc. They made conscious efforts to choose AMERICA over any number of closer countries to emigrate to for opportunity. It aint easy crossing either the Pacific or the Atlantic ocean.

BUT, contrast that with economic driven immigration, where loyalty lays not with any desire to share in the ideals of the nation, but to make money and leave. Or possibly stay. There is no desire to "be" American amongst most illegals. They wouldn't have come unless they HAD to. They are motivated out of geography to come to the United States, not out of any desire to "be American." Simply view the multitude waving Mexican and assorted other Latin American flags at their "accept us" protests to view the true intent to be "_____ nationality" in America, instead of "_______-American." Simply witness the lack of desire to assimilate amongst this "newest" wave of immigrants in comparison to most other immigrants from other parts of the world.

If you wanna play Pollyanna and ignore that TRUTH, that is fine. Won't change a damned thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guywithacause
4-Becuase I say we, as a country, have the moral obligation to assist the poor, and we also welcome the world into our home (the rich, poor, and everyone in between), how does that mean we are stripping away the social reforms within the past 100 years? It was due to many of these successive waves of immigrants that we even have many of the social reforms that you cherish!
Don't conflate "immigrants" with "illegal immigrants." We invite as many as we believe we 1) need and 2) can assimilate at any one time. We also calculate how many we can take in that will inevitably drain more in social services than they contribute, and we make conscious calculations as to population growth and sustainability.

That is the purpose of immigration laws in the first place. It's something your brand of "feel good immigration" conveniently ignores.

We do NOT have a "moral obligation" to take in the world's poor. Period. We could take in 10 million of the "world's poor" every year and STILL not make a dent in the "third world," which reproduces exponentially.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greatbasinguide
We already have tolerance in immigration...the whole country is immigrants! Some have just been here longer than others.
The whole country is not "immigrants." This is not a nation OF immigrants, but a nation DESCENDED from immigrants.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greatbasinguide
As for tolerance of social welfare, yep..we have had that for many years also...and will continue to have those for the foreseebale future, not because it is bad for the country..but because it is good for the country.
You must have never either worked in social welfare services. Those "in the know" will tell you EXACTLY the sort of strain that unchecked illegal immigration is having, has had, and will have on both the delivery, success, and funding of social welfare programs, INCLUDING public education.

Quote:
Originally Posted by greatbainguide
You are mixing up exploitation of immigration and social welfare with the true vision of each. The exploitation is the problem...immigration and social welfare are not. Since you are unwilling, or unable, to seperate the two....then this conversation is pointless.
The conversation is pointless because you are letting your emotional goody goodiness, Disney version American history, and breathless defense of the downtrodden get in the way of rational and clear debate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by greatbasinguide
At the end of the day...immigration, support programs, greed, exploitation, and power are what this country is about and has always been about...and its what has made it the overwhelming success and super power of the world.
Again, "Immigration" = fine.

"Illegal Immigration" = NOT fine.

Please learn to separate the two. It will save you a lot more typing in the future.
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Old 12-27-2007, 01:13 PM
 
Location: Mott Haven
2,978 posts, read 3,122,865 times
Reputation: 209
Immigration is fine...and Illegal immigration is not fine. When was this contested by me exactly? We clearly see things differently...we live in a country that welcomes ALL...the good, the bad,...and the ugly...always has been. But now that you are here, and comfy, you want to change the rules because things are not your liking or it will incovenience you. Same story as 100 years ago towards new immigrants...some things don't change.

We are not responsible for subsidizing the entire world's poor, nor does any reasonable person assert that, but this country does welcome all, and its specialty is the POOR, whether they aspire to be Wal-Mart Shopping, Big Mac eating, pickup driving or just here to send money home, or to start a new business, or here just to have kids and raise them here and then return home. All of that and more is why people have and continue to come here.

So long as US companies continue to exploit cheap labor at the expense of the American way of life..and so long as the government encourages (directly or indirectly) this behavior, the problems that you feel will only get worse. So it is not immigrants, immigration, or the poor that are ruining your supposedly idyllic world, it is your own govt and corporations. Assign blame where it belongs.
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Old 12-27-2007, 01:23 PM
 
1,266 posts, read 2,226,473 times
Reputation: 436
Quote:
Originally Posted by John23 View Post
The idea that American citizens wont do low paid work is silly.

In California, it seems like a foreign concept, but go to the midwest or northeast. When I was in Maine a few years ago...white kids were working at Burger King, they seemed to be doing alright.

They have landscaping and construction up there, how does it get done?

The pro illegal crowd is blind and delusional if they actually believe any of their arguements.
You've got that right!

Not only should those considering coming here illegally stay put, those here illegally should go home. If we need any unskilled labor, which I don't think we do, we can let people in LEGALLY.
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Old 12-27-2007, 01:26 PM
 
17,286 posts, read 25,022,351 times
Reputation: 8527
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guywithacause View Post
Immigration is fine...and Illegal immigration is not fine. When was this contested by me exactly?
It is logically impossible to say we welcome ALL and then turn around and say that we can HAVE immigration laws in the first place.

But in all honesty, I have no idea what, exactly, you ARE arguing, because I have NEVER purported to be "anti-immigrant," or even "anti-poor".

I merely suggest that we cannot sustain importation of unchecked amounts of impoverished persons. YOU'RE the one who ran away with the after school special on the history of immigration.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guywithacause
But now that you are here, and comfy, you want to change the rules because things are not your liking or it will incovenience you. Same story as 100 years ago towards new immigrants...some things don't change.
Who says I want the "rules to change"? Maybe you have misunderstood everything I have said.

I want the existing laws enforced, which work to ensure we are not overwhelmed by masses of impoverished persons. We take in what we can, and we have NO moral obligation to take more.


Period.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Guywithacause
We are not responsible for subsidizing the entire world's poor, nor does any reasonable person assert that, but this country does welcome all, and its specialty is the POOR, whether they aspire to be Wal-Mart Shopping, Big Mac eating, pickup driving or just here to send money home, or to start a new business, or here just to have kids and raise them here and then return home. All of that and more is why people have and continue to come here.
You have no idea ironic it is that you talk about living in an "idyllic" world when everything you write reads like script from the American pavilion at Epcot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guywithacause
So long as US companies continue to exploit cheap labor at the expense of the American way of life..and so long as the government encourages (directly or indirectly) this behavior, the problems that you feel will only get worse. So it is not immigrants, immigration, or the poor that are ruining your supposedly idyllic world, it is your own govt and corporations. Assign blame where it belongs.
I assign blame in both instances, and if you weren't a Johnny Come Lately to this section of City-data, you would know that. I suggest you spare your righteous indignation for someone else.

As many have pointed out before, illegal immigrants largely cause their own problems, demanding accomodation instead of assimilation, etc. THAT is what has begin to rib most Americans the wrong way.
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Old 12-27-2007, 01:32 PM
 
Location: Texas
8,062 posts, read 15,895,873 times
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"2-The "that was then and this is now" mentaility does not hold water. The world has changed, as our society has, but people continue to come here for the same reasons they did for the past 400 years...to make a better life for themselves, their families, and live free. And every wave was always met with some excuse why these new immigrants should not be here, or how things have changed. Your attitude is nothing new...you are just using new excuses...as did everyone before you.

Furthermore, this society was always about creating a safe, equal, positive, free social construct where everyone was welcome. That was 500 years ago..and that mentality has not changed. As I said....you are just using new excuses to continue the blame game."

WRONG -- There are huge differences between immigration from the late 18th and 19th Centuries and what is happening now. First off, the (mostly) Europeans were recruited in their own countries to come to work in the mines, mills and industries. Others had to have an American family member who would sponsor them and provide support until they found jobs. All of this -- waiting jobs, sponsors, identity, etc. -- had to be documented fully.

IF they survived the long Atlantic crossing (many did not), they had to present themselves whole and healthy with their documents intact at Ellis Island. If they were sick, they were not admitted into the country; if their documents were not in order, ditto. Their sponsors had to claim them and provide for their housing, food, etc.

These immigrants came with the intention of becoming fully productive and proud American citizens. They learned English -- accommodations were not made for them in their languages. They did not have their homeland as a contiguous land mass attached to the U.S. where they could flit back and forth and refuse to assimilate. Even though they were here LEGALLY, they were sometimes paid lower wages and they had to work hard -- in the American economy, not a shadow one -- to improve and prosper.

My great-grandmother came from Czechoslovakia and my great-grandfather came from Poland, escaping Communist rule and persecution. They were recruited to work in the coal mines. The FIRST generation learned English and instilled American patriotism and values in their children. They were proud people who wouldn't buy anything on credit and were grateful to have what they did. They wouldn't even think of accepting welfare or food stamps and subsisted on potatoes and homegrown vegetables when times were lean. They didn't believe this country owed them a thing -- quite the contrary. They believed that they owed America a great deal for the chance to live in freedom.

I worked as a high school teacher on the Border for many years and was heart-sick at the "America owes me everything" mentality. I saw firsthand the refusal to learn English and the claims of "racism" against anyone who insisted they did need to learn it; the over-reliance on social services; the self identification as "Mexican" and the disavowal of being "American"; and the incredible rates of teen pregnancy. More than 30 percent of the girls had a baby in high school. Many had two or more. I taught two sisters in one family who had three babies each by the time they graduated; their older sister and two babies, as well. So, mom, the three daughters, and their eight children all lived together happily collecting welfare and food stamps. I convinced the youngest one that the father of her three needed to support them rather than the taxpayers and she did file since he had joined the Army. This young man had FIVE children with three young women by the time he was 19!

This isn't the rule but it isn't rare, either. The illegals from south of the border see America as a giant cash cow. And if it doesn't work out for them here, they can easily hop right back over the border. There is little commitment to strengthening America or patriotism in this wave of immigrants.
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Old 12-27-2007, 01:33 PM
 
Location: Mott Haven
2,978 posts, read 3,122,865 times
Reputation: 209
Lol...I have never been to Epcot..why should I...I live in NYC and can get the real thing and not the Disney version. I agree that we cannot take in the entire world's poor...but until the government AND the corporation stop importing them and exploiting this labor at the expense of ther American lifestyle...your rants about immigration laws are wasted breath. Illegal immigration is not the problem....it is a SYMPTON of the massive rape of this country by corporations..and the greed of the government whose pockets are lined by the gigantic corporations.

While the simple minded are fighting about illegal immigrants and taunting them on message boards, blaming them for the destruction of America, the real culprits are laughing all the way to the bank! Keep your eyes focused squarely on the 30 illegals hanging out in front of Home Depot and you will ignore everything else...and that is exactly what is happening.
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Old 12-27-2007, 01:37 PM
 
Location: Oklahoma(formerly SoCalif) Originally Mich,
13,387 posts, read 16,240,329 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JVTX72 View Post
Is that an illegal trying to get BACK over the border???
That Picture was with the news acticle of this topic.
http://www.latimes.com/news/la-fi-mi...ck=5&cset=true Actually it looks like a Border Patrol Officer. I unerstand your question because the only thing that fits this story is the fence.
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Old 12-27-2007, 01:45 PM
 
16,754 posts, read 18,981,770 times
Reputation: 6841
There is still the MAJOR problem... less illegals means more work for legal citizens. Yay! Great... BUT what about the downturn in the economy... we are in a recession and thats the bigger picture... how are we going to get ourselves out of it... inflation is KILLING us.. but very few presidential candidates want to kill inflation as it affects their spending budgets... how you are going to vote is going to affect your very livelihood.. very few candidates want to abolish the Federal Reserve which has been causing the massive inflation and a significant player for the downturing economy... Making more jobs available to legal citizens is only solving part of the problem... how are we going to solve the next part?? Your vote... but then.. who are you voting for that is not going to hold the status quo??
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