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Old 12-31-2007, 06:04 AM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,628,664 times
Reputation: 3785

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lillietta View Post
Most citizens in America were born here, as were our parents, grandparents, and great-grandparents.


Huh???? How do you figure that??? Great-grandparents? I would think you speak of the WASPS, and they are in the minority.
Anymore: the abbreviation, 'WASP' is becoming a cultural label vis a vis 'Hispanic'.

One need not even be White and/or Protestant anymore to be a WASP.

I consider myself to be one of the above despite my partial Eastern Euro ethnicity.
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Old 12-31-2007, 08:28 AM
 
17,279 posts, read 24,969,411 times
Reputation: 8524
Quote:
Originally Posted by neonwattagelimit View Post

As for your comment about American not being a nation of immigrants, well, I don't think you can compare three centuries of recent history with a migration that occurred over the course of thousands of years and before the advent of modern culture. Those two events are just not comparable. And, for the record, nearly everybody I know has at least one great-grandparent that was born outside this country, and usually more than that. In many cases, it is grandparents, or parents, or they are immigrants themselves (legal, of course). There's probably some statistics on this, but I'm not about to go find them right now.
Similarly you cannot compare immigration of years ago with immigration of today. Imagine a time when there was:

* No social services
* No "right" to free medical care
* No WIC, no foodstamps
* No rampant PC accomodationism of immigrant cultures at the risk of lawsuit or being labeled racist/xenophobic
* No building codes, zoning codes, health codes restricting 20 families from sharing a tenement
* No globalized economy shipping low-skilled (and even high skilled) labor offshore for shareholder profits

THAT was the environment immigrants of yesteryear stepped into. It's a far cry from the reality in America today, don't you think?

Trying to say that "immigration as usual" should be tolerated, let alone illegal immigration, is naive at best. This isn't 1910. History isn't repeating itself because never in American history have we had a subset of immigrants who come to the United States with no intention to ever "become Americans," but rather quite like their own culture, feel its superior to American culture, and wish to enjoy the fruits of the American economy without the burden of say, assimilating as past cultures have. And, even if you point to this or that ethnic group that stubbornly held onto its own for so long, were they ACCOMMODATED by the US government at the same time, as is now happening? No. If any group refused assimilation, they missed out and eventually had to assimilate or they would be relegated to permanent second class status, unable to function properly in society.

Visit Miami, where the Mayor once proclaimed that Miami was a "Spanish speaking city," and that anyone who had a problem with that could just not bother visiting.

Any additional flavor in a soup is good. If the flavor becomes too overpowering, it destroys the character of the soup.

Stop making excuses for irresponsible immigrants, their enablers, and their employers. ALL are worthy of contempt.
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Old 12-31-2007, 09:11 AM
 
Location: Land of 10000 Lakes + some
2,885 posts, read 1,422,807 times
Reputation: 346
[In fact, it's safe to say illegal aliens have obviously done more damage to this country than al queda itself has.

This has to be said only by someone who has led a charmed life. Talk to (or about) the circumstances of the Afghanis, Pakistanis, people in Darfur, and then talk about the threat of illegal immigration.

And that's a stretch when you compare with 9-11.
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Old 12-31-2007, 09:19 AM
 
Location: San Diego North County
4,800 posts, read 7,690,528 times
Reputation: 3010
Quote:
Originally Posted by TriMT7 View Post
Similarly you cannot compare immigration of years ago with immigration of today. Imagine a time when there was:

* No social services
* No "right" to free medical care
* No WIC, no foodstamps
* No rampant PC accomodationism of immigrant cultures at the risk of lawsuit or being labeled racist/xenophobic
* No building codes, zoning codes, health codes restricting 20 families from sharing a tenement
* No globalized economy shipping low-skilled (and even high skilled) labor offshore for shareholder profits

THAT was the environment immigrants of yesteryear stepped into. It's a far cry from the reality in America today, don't you think?

Trying to say that "immigration as usual" should be tolerated, let alone illegal immigration, is naive at best. This isn't 1910. History isn't repeating itself because never in American history have we had a subset of immigrants who come to the United States with no intention to ever "become Americans," but rather quite like their own culture, feel its superior to American culture, and wish to enjoy the fruits of the American economy without the burden of say, assimilating as past cultures have. And, even if you point to this or that ethnic group that stubbornly held onto its own for so long, were they ACCOMMODATED by the US government at the same time, as is now happening? No. If any group refused assimilation, they missed out and eventually had to assimilate or they would be relegated to permanent second class status, unable to function properly in society.

Visit Miami, where the Mayor once proclaimed that Miami was a "Spanish speaking city," and that anyone who had a problem with that could just not bother visiting.

Any additional flavor in a soup is good. If the flavor becomes too overpowering, it destroys the character of the soup.

Stop making excuses for irresponsible immigrants, their enablers, and their employers. ALL are worthy of contempt.
Excellent post.
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Old 12-31-2007, 09:39 AM
 
Location: South Bay Native
13,050 posts, read 21,168,230 times
Reputation: 22525
Quote:
Originally Posted by neonwattagelimit View Post
All right...I told myself I wouldn't venture into C-D's political forums because of this issue. But it's Sunday night, I don't feel like going to work tomorrow, and here I am. So instead of getting into myriad debates and wasting my time and getting angry with strangers, I'm going to let it all out right here. I'm going to nip this thing in the bud, before it gets too bad

I also would like to note, before I begin, that I'm not passing judgment on anyone...I'm just speaking from the heart.

Several months ago, my mother sent me one of those political chain letters. It was a petition to try and stop the government from giving illegal immigrants social security. The letter had a lot of populist, people-verus-the-powerful sort of rhetoric. Now, I don't think illegal immigrants should be entitled to social security. But the tone didn't sit well with me. It seemed to say that the people, the huddled masses, the commonfolk, are rising up and taking on the power of.......those poor, sweaty guys who mow our lawns for three dollars an hour.

Doesn't something about that seem wrong to you?

I don't deny that illegal immigration is a serious issue. Border security is pathetic and in dire need of improvement. But there's twelve million illegal immigrants here. A fence isn't going to stop them and we can't deport all of them. Most of them work, too. And, practical arguments aside, there is something about the anti-illegal frenzy that reeks of....scapegoating. It just feels wrong. More than that, it feels unamerican.

I was raised to believe that immigration is part of what makes America great. "Give us your tired, your poor, your huddled masses," all that stuff. I never met my great-grandparents who came here from Italy, but to me, they're silent heroes. To leave behind everything you know for a strange land in the vague hope that maybe your descendants, people you may never even meet, will have a better life - it's just amazing. I can barely handle moving from New York to Chicago and these people got on a boat and traveled thousands of miles on the backs of some mysterious future. It truly boggles my mind.

What I find equally puzzling is Americans, many descended from immigrants themselves, who now rail against today's newcomers. They're different, they say. This time they don't want to assimilate, they don't care, they don't work hard, they want to take over our culture and our institutions.

You know what I say to that? Take a f***ing history lesson.

Bashing immigrants is a tradition as old as American immigration itself. If he were alive in 1850, Tom Tancredo would've been a Know-Nothing. The Know-Nothings thought the Irish couldn't assimilate because they were Catholic. "No Irish Need Apply" was once a common sight in parts of New York and Boston. In late-19th century Cincinnati there were more German-language newspapers than English-language ones. Around the turn of the century a number of organizations, including the KKK, raised alarms about Jews, Italians, Eastern Europeans...all assimilated. All speak English. All have been pretty damn successful here.

Why has immigrant bashing been so popular for so long? Because it's easy. It's the easiest thing in the world. What are these people going to do? They don't even speak the language! Instead of finding the root of our complicated social ills, let's just blame the <insert new ethnic group here>. There...all done!

Further, it underestimates the power of America. Do you really, honestly believe that the greatest nation on earth is going to be undermined by people who happen to speak Spanish and are willingly coming here? To believe this is not only to ignore history, it is, I think, to insult America itself. This country has the oldest continuous Constitution on the planet and that's no coincidence. America is versatile, it is strong, it is able to both maintain diversity and assimilate it. That is the beauty of a society based upon democratic ideals, people!

America is, was, and will be a nation of immigrants. Anything less would be detrimental to our future and betray our ideals. So let's find an equitable solution to the problem of illegal immigration. I say make it harder to get here illegally and easier to get here legally. If you are already here, and you work and obey the law, you can apply to stay and maybe, someday, years from now, you can be a citizen.

To do anything less would be impractical. I believe it would also be unamerican.
In other words, you endorse the exploitation of foreigners in our country?
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Old 12-31-2007, 09:48 AM
 
Location: outer boroughs, NYC
905 posts, read 2,520,856 times
Reputation: 439
Quote:
Originally Posted by TriMT7 View Post
Similarly you cannot compare immigration of years ago with immigration of today. Imagine a time when there was:

* No social services
* No "right" to free medical care
* No WIC, no foodstamps
* No rampant PC accomodationism of immigrant cultures at the risk of lawsuit or being labeled racist/xenophobic
* No building codes, zoning codes, health codes restricting 20 families from sharing a tenement
* No globalized economy shipping low-skilled (and even high skilled) labor offshore for shareholder profits

THAT was the environment immigrants of yesteryear stepped into. It's a far cry from the reality in America today, don't you think?

Trying to say that "immigration as usual" should be tolerated, let alone illegal immigration, is naive at best. This isn't 1910. History isn't repeating itself because never in American history have we had a subset of immigrants who come to the United States with no intention to ever "become Americans," but rather quite like their own culture, feel its superior to American culture, and wish to enjoy the fruits of the American economy without the burden of say, assimilating as past cultures have. And, even if you point to this or that ethnic group that stubbornly held onto its own for so long, were they ACCOMMODATED by the US government at the same time, as is now happening? No. If any group refused assimilation, they missed out and eventually had to assimilate or they would be relegated to permanent second class status, unable to function properly in society.

Visit Miami, where the Mayor once proclaimed that Miami was a "Spanish speaking city," and that anyone who had a problem with that could just not bother visiting.

Any additional flavor in a soup is good. If the flavor becomes too overpowering, it destroys the character of the soup.

Stop making excuses for irresponsible immigrants, their enablers, and their employers. ALL are worthy of contempt.
I think I already addressed both of these issues in prior posts. To wit:

"Bashing immigrants is a tradition as old as American immigration itself. If he were alive in 1850, Tom Tancredo would've been a Know-Nothing. The Know-Nothings thought the Irish couldn't assimilate because they were Catholic. "No Irish Need Apply" was once a common sight in parts of New York and Boston. In late-19th century Cincinnati there were more German-language newspapers than English-language ones. Around the turn of the century a number of organizations, including the KKK, raised alarms about Jews, Italians, Eastern Europeans...all assimilated. All speak English. All have been pretty damn successful here."

In other words, people said the EXACT same thing (they don't want to assimilate, they're different, they think their culture is superior, etc) about EVERY immigrant group that has come here since, well, ever. They've ALWAYS been wrong. There has to be something to this.

And, regarding the illegal aspect:

"But, for the ones that are here already, I say there are degrees of criminality and if they have done everything legally except the actual act of coming here, well, they're basically equivalent to small-time criminals. Fine them and/or exact some other form of punishment, and let them stay."

You do raise a valid point in that society today is far different from the way it was a century ago. Everything, pretty much, is more complicated. Still, I think there are certain, very basic social patterns that remain pretty much intact. I also don't see how making sure that people - they are people, after all - do not live in total squalor is a bad thing.

For what it's worth, nearly all first-generation Americans I've met - I'm from NY, I've met a good number - are bilingual, with English being their language of choice.
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Old 12-31-2007, 09:50 AM
 
Location: outer boroughs, NYC
905 posts, read 2,520,856 times
Reputation: 439
Quote:
Originally Posted by DontH8Me View Post
In other words, you endorse the exploitation of foreigners in our country?
No, which is why I think immigration policy needs a serious overhaul. Still, there is a long tradition of immigrant upward mobility in this country, and I see no reason why that has come to an end. Come here and pull yourself up!
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Old 12-31-2007, 10:03 AM
 
Location: South Bay Native
13,050 posts, read 21,168,230 times
Reputation: 22525
Quote:
Originally Posted by neonwattagelimit View Post
No, which is why I think immigration policy needs a serious overhaul. Still, there is a long tradition of immigrant upward mobility in this country, and I see no reason why that has come to an end. Come here and pull yourself up!
Actually, yes, you do. You are the one referring to the gardeners making $3/hour.

Let them go pull themselves up in their homeland. We as the US owe illegals ZILCH.
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Old 12-31-2007, 10:06 AM
 
4,828 posts, read 6,792,255 times
Reputation: 620
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkeye48 View Post
Most people can trace their lineage back several generations. We're not a nation of immigrants. This is a fallacy that many on the liberal side like to expound to justify the presence of illegal aliens.





Illegal aliens have come here by the millions and millions. Best estimates are that there are somewhere between 20 and 25 million illegals here.

They have destroyed entry level wages all across this country while stealing jobs our very poorest of citizens that desperately need them. They suck tens and tens of billions and billions out of our economy in the form or benefits then drain our economy further by taking billions and billions of their illegally obtained booty and sending it out of the country.

Not to mention the tens of thousands of Americans that have been killed by illegals either by outright murder, vehicular manslaughter, usually while driving drunk. Add in all the crimes these terrorists commit including burglaries, children raped, cars that are either broken into or stolen, they transport and deal drugs, and commit a host of other extremely violent crimes.

In light of all this perhaps the term economic terrorist doesn't quite fit. They're just terrorists plain and simple. In fact, it's safe to say illegal aliens have obviously done more damage to this country than al queda itself has. In fact, they couldn't have done more damage to this country than if they actually formed an army and literally attacked this nation using military force.
The pilgrims were immigrants so YES we are a nation of immigrants. It is just paranoid and plain stupid to say that illegal immigrants have done more damage to this country than al queda. What i don't get is if illegal immigrants are so bad as you describe them then why hasn't the president and congress declared a state of emergency and why don't we have our military patrolling the border fully armed etc? You whole arguments is just based on fear, stereotypes and lies. Thank God only a MINORITY of americans think like you.
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Old 12-31-2007, 10:13 AM
 
Location: South Bay Native
13,050 posts, read 21,168,230 times
Reputation: 22525
Quote:
Originally Posted by blacknight04 View Post
The pilgrims were immigrants so YES we are a nation of immigrants. It is just paranoid and plain stupid to say that illegal immigrants have done more damage to this country than al queda. What i don't get is if illegal immigrants are so bad as you describe them then why hasn't the president and congress declared a state of emergency and why don't we have our military patrolling the border fully armed etc? You whole arguments is just based on fear, stereotypes and lies. Thank God only a MINORITY of americans think like you.
Actually, the minority is the people who are pro-illegal. check out the poll in the forum and re-assess. Or go ahead and stick your head back down in the sand or wherever else it has been until now - it won't change the tidal wave that's coming. Real Americans with any sense of pride in their heritage and forefathers will not allow the trampling and deterioration by the illegal crowd of our homeland. We want our country back and we will not stop until our laws are respected and upheld. Every try the pro-illegals make to twist this into a race issue makes it more and more apparent that you are barely afloat, and are desperately gasping your last breaths before the waves lap together over your head.
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