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Old 12-31-2007, 04:21 PM
 
17,279 posts, read 24,957,665 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alely View Post
Nope, they were different but they did it on what was their piece of earth.
The Aztecs and Maya raiding the jungles of neighboring Native peoples looking for human sacrifice and slaves was them "doing it on what was their piece of earth?"
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Old 12-31-2007, 04:23 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alely View Post
Nope, they were different but they did it on what was their piece of earth.
TriMT7, I think you're going to have to concede this one. He's got you beat... You gave it a honest try....
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Old 12-31-2007, 04:26 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alely View Post
OMG!! Dance with wolves! That's my favorite movie! I love me that Daniel Day-Lewis!

All kidding aside, Just because they did not "claim the land" did not mean it wasn't theirs. They had/have a different culture and a different way of doing things, the western way is not always the "right way"
Well those were different times. In the same way the British just landed in Australia and took it over. There was an aborigine there trying to sell them a T-shirt no doubt, but it wasn't his land just because he happened to be standing there.

I do agree that some of the treaties between the American government and some Indian tribes were violated by the Americans. But, you know, someone bought New Amsterdam/York from an Indian for a handful of beads, only to find out later that the Indian had no claim to the land in the first place ...

The truth is that every country's borders have been settled through war, including Mexico/US and Canada/US.

Right or wrong, that is the way it is, and at some point the losers must stop whining ... That goes for the American Indians, Australian Aborigines, NZ Maori's, the so-called Palestinians, the Chechnya, Irish Republicans, the Flemish etc. etc. Borders can always be re-negotiated however, nothing wrong with that.
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Old 12-31-2007, 04:26 PM
 
17,279 posts, read 24,957,665 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
TriMT7, I think you're going to have to concede this one. He's got you beat... You gave it a honest try....
I disagree.

Unless conquest is "OK" as long as you do it on your own continent.

Asians can conquer each other, but it's bad if they cross the Caucuses into Europe. Europeans can war amongst themselves... and it's only bad if they take they expand into the New World...... Middle Easterners can conquer, but it's bad only when they expanded into Africa......

Because intra-racial crime is fine, but inter-racial crime is worse?


I can't wrap my mind around some people's logic!
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Old 12-31-2007, 04:49 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TriMT7 View Post
I disagree.

Unless conquest is "OK" as long as you do it on your own continent.

Asians can conquer each other, but it's bad if they cross the Caucuses into Europe. Europeans can war amongst themselves... and it's only bad if they take they expand into the New World...... Middle Easterners can conquer, but it's bad only when they expanded into Africa......

Because intra-racial crime is fine, but inter-racial crime is worse?


I can't wrap my mind around some people's logic!
You've got it--- there's no outrage that is quite as bad as a 'racist' outrage. The examples are legion---

* Saddam "ran" Iraq---but the Americans are "brutalizing" it...Not content to merely kill Iraqis, they're even making IRAQIS (and fellow Muslims) kill EACH OTHER !.....Saddam (and his sons) just engaged in a little home-grown mass torture, rape, mutilation, and genocide---they were high-spirited guys, but they never 'invaded' anybody---(well, nobody IMPORTANT, at least).

* Apartheid-era South Africa was "evil"--several hundred blacks per year died violently there, the large majority of them at the hands of rival black factions..but what happened between the Hutus and Tutsis in Rwanda was just intra-racial "business as usual", unfortunate in the fact that tens of thousands were hacked to death or dismembered---but at LEAST there was no racism involved..

* Mexican immigrants came from backgrounds in which the rich almost literally 'ground their faces in the dirt'. They never had a chance at making a good living. But when they came illegally here, and improved their lot immensely, they were upset to find themselves the victims of 'racism'--

* Muslims in Europe HATE Europeans....it's not so much that they're mean, or torture the Muslims, or engage in any murderous religious persecution like was done 'back home'..it's just that those darn European are such RACISTS. The Muslims find this "snooty attitude" FAR more annoying than any persecution that might have happened back home...that was really just a bunch of "home boys"...

* Gangs in our inner cities murder people weekly. That's bad enough, I suppose--but when those racist COPS come around, poking their noses into the situation and making arrests, that's REALLY bad---and it's racist, as well. The racism is what really 'rankles', far more than the murders or other crimes...
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Old 12-31-2007, 05:01 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,610,630 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zanman View Post
Well those were different times. In the same way the British just landed in Australia and took it over. There was an aborigine there trying to sell them a T-shirt no doubt, but it wasn't his land just because he happened to be standing there.

I do agree that some of the treaties between the American government and some Indian tribes were violated by the Americans. But, you know, someone bought New Amsterdam/York from an Indian for a handful of beads, only to find out later that the Indian had no claim to the land in the first place ...

The truth is that every country's borders have been settled through war, including Mexico/US and Canada/US.

Right or wrong, that is the way it is, and at some point the losers must stop whining ... That goes for the American Indians, Australian Aborigines, NZ Maori's, the so-called Palestinians, the Chechnya, Irish Republicans, the Flemish etc. etc. Borders can always be re-negotiated however, nothing wrong with that.
In all seriousness, much of it was simple inter-cultural misunderstanding. Even when American Indians "sold" a piece of property to the Europeans, and even when Europeans sat down and "signed papers" to make a deal, the fact is that most American Indians simply had no concept of "private property"--or of a formal legal system. It would be like our understanding of "buying the wind"...we can't conceive of that. Early-day Indians simply couldn't conceive of "owning" the land, anymore than "owning" the moon--or the stars--or the weather. It sounded like nonsense to them, and if the buyers 'pushed through' a deal, it was often just based on wishful thinking---AND the Indians often failed to realize that once a white BOUGHT the property, no one thereafter was free to just "stroll across it" anymore...this was a very hard concept to grasp, coming from a culture without private property.
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Old 12-31-2007, 05:08 PM
 
Location: On my way to FLA baby !!
1,999 posts, read 1,182,276 times
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Last time I checked the Indians even butchered each other and they NEVER laid a legal claim to any land that I know of.
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Old 12-31-2007, 05:12 PM
 
3,936 posts, read 5,446,580 times
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Default This is so true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zanman View Post
Excuse me, but the tone of your missive is slightly skewed.

Native Americans, and I assume you mean Indians, did not own America. They had no claim to any land they "claimed".

The Indian tribes the first Europeans contacted did absolutely nothing with the land. They did not build anything and hadn't even invented the wheel.

They were nomads who, when they had finished polluting wherever they happend to be simmply upped and moved sticks to another location. Some of the Indian tribes were cannibalistic. They were barbarians and were decimated because they could not adapt to the superior Western cultures that did in fact develop the land.

As for "pillaging and murdering", the Indians were the most brutal killers ever.

Try not to rely on fiction like "Dances with Wolves" for your history.

Why do so many forget that this is what really happened?
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Old 12-31-2007, 05:35 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,611,035 times
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Besides: the Navajo arrived after most of the other Native American Indians; I strongly suspect that another tribe/nation suffered courtesy of the new arrivals-----yet, none of the 'reconquista' types dare demand that the Navajo leave.

Hypocrites.
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Old 12-31-2007, 06:25 PM
 
Location: Oklahoma(formerly SoCalif) Originally Mich,
13,387 posts, read 16,197,803 times
Reputation: 4611
_________________________ AZTEC CIVILIZATION __________
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