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Old 01-03-2008, 08:40 AM
 
Location: San Diego North County
4,800 posts, read 7,687,743 times
Reputation: 3010

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Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanLeeParis View Post
The U.S. is basically a White, Anglo-Saxon country, and the majority of Americans want it to stay that way. That is the main reason amnesty isn't a good idea. Another is that they are illegal in the first place, and taking American jobs. They shouldn't be here. They are alien criminals. No different from thugs.
I disagree completely as do my Apache cousins living on the rez in Oklahoma.

This country is not now, nor has it ever been a "White Anglo-Saxon" country and while Caucasians have become the majority in the past, that does not mean that they alone form the backbone of this country. This statement assumes that this country is strictly populated by Americans of European extraction and nothing could be further from the truth.

The America of my grandparent's time became a melting pot for a plethora of legal immigrants from all over the world who desired above all, to be a part of this great country, contributing their lives and the lives of their progeny to ensure their place in society as United States citizens.

I am proud of my Scandanavian, European, and Native American lineage, but I certainly don't dwell on it. Above all, I am proud to be an American. You should not be so negligent as to pin the label of "White Anglo Saxon" on the majority of Americans. Most of us, if we are at least second generation Americans, are mutts with the blood of many peoples running through our veins.

Personally, I reject any sort of label which attempts to fit me into any racial stereotype. I am what I am--an American. Race is merely a man-made construct which has caused a great deal of division and heartache in this country. There are so many problems facing this country at this point in time and we'll never come together on any of them if we continue to be divided by stereotypes. I'd rather be a part of the solution than a part of the problem.
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Old 01-25-2008, 01:39 PM
 
1 posts, read 2,812 times
Reputation: 10
Default Devil's advocate

Let's use ABC Construction Company as a small-scale example. ABC Constuction builds homes all over Arizona. They employ 3 workers to do the
cosmetic stone and masonry work that adorns the front of each of their homes. The workers are Emilio, who is an illegal immigrant,
and Tom and Bob who are American citizens. Tom and Bob are in their early 20's and have only been working with ABC
for under a year. They've worked in many different fields, and will probably keep this job until they find
a higher paying job (next year). Their work is satisfactory, and they leave the job every day around 6:00PM.Emilio, on the other hand, is an EXCEPTIONAL craftsman. His stone work puts Tom and Bob's to shame. His stonework
on finished homes gets compliments all the time, whereas the other 2 workers either produce mediocre work or on
a few occassions needed re-done. I guess it's because Emilio thinks of this work as permanent and takes pride
in his work, whereas Tom and Bob are just working for a paycheck, and love complaining about it. But ABC needs them
because a year ago all they had was Emilio. There is just no one learning this skill in America.

Here's ABC's dillema - If they lay off Emilio because he's not a legal citizen, then their homes suffer. Emilio has not
"stolen" anyone's job. Emilio has a great skill, that he brought with him to this country and has found a
demand for that skill with ABC. For that open position, he is the best candidate that is available. People don't enter
the U.S. skill-less and steal jobs. You've got to stop thinking that way. They are being pulled here. The real problem is that Americans
don't want those jobs or there simply isn't enough people to fill them. The demand is there and the attraction is
like a magnet to anyone (regardless of what land they're from) who can fill that need. Shouldn't Emilio's work
be rewarded and shown off across the facades of hundreds of homes across Arizona? Don't you want this great
work on your home if you live in Phoenix? Or do you want Tom and Bob to do a mediocre job on it, and then you'll
just complain about the quality of ABC homes.

If they lay off Emilio, XYZ Construction company will pick him up, use his skill for their homes, and then ABC's sales and homes will
suffer consequently. And since Emilio only needs paid $3 an hour and will readily work til midnight (by his
own will) then the homes of XYZ Construction company will be that much cheaper. (I realize on a larger scale, but stay with
me on this) Now, enter the American consumer. They look at all the homes available to them and see ABC Const homes
are more expensive and the quality is lackluster. XYZ homes are better quality and cheaper. Guess which one they
buy? AND THAT IS THE PROBLEM! Americans will always go for the least expensive if the quality is equal. Why do
you think Wal-Mart is such the powerhouse it is in this country? CHEAP RULES in the U.S.!! And when "cheap is king" the companies have
to find a way to bring it to you cheaper. And it gets increasingly worse as the economy worsens. The worse off an
American is, the most likely they are to think they'll get ahead by buying cheaper products as a way to keep ahead
of the game. You cannot keep this from happening. Hence, this is why "buy American" never caught on. Because buying
American meant you had to spend more for the same product so that your neighbor could keep his job.

The truth is the world is flattening out. American's are overpaid and do very little work for their money in comparison
to other lands. There are people right over the border willing to work harder and longer for YOUR job. Now we can erect walls to keep
them out to protect our way of life (overpaid) or we can accept that the demand will bring those people to us.
History has shown that you cannot keep a demand from being met - it will find a way. Even if it means these
Mexicans risk their life crossing the border in a gas tank of an 18 wheeler. That's a pretty strong desire to
want to work for less than you at your job. Face it - we are the richest country on the planet and the majority
of the rest of the world is poor. This balance of power will shift within the next 100 years. We should accept it
and adapt and stop holding onto what is changing and trying to keep it from changing.

In my opinion the only thing we can do about it is to create a nation of hard working individuals who take
pride in their work, work hard, and do it as well as anyone else around the globe will. We need to stop looking
for hand-outs from the gov't and stop breeding generations of families on welfare. If Americans were thought of
as the hardest working people than there wouldn't be a need for an illegal immigrant to do that job for us.
We also need to let those jobs go to them and ADAPT! USE YOUR TALENT in this great nation that allows you to do
whatever you choose. And realize that there will be competition from your neighbor across the street and your neighbor across the border.
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Old 01-25-2008, 04:14 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,612,395 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanLeeParis View Post
The U.S. is basically a White, Anglo-Saxon country, and the majority of Americans want it to stay that way. That is the main reason amnesty isn't a good idea. Another is that they are illegal in the first place, and taking American jobs. They shouldn't be here. They are alien criminals. No different from thugs.
The United States is not a "white" country, and is CERTAINLY not an "Anglo-Saxon" one, either. It is a multi-racial, multi-ethnic artificial 'construct' in which various people, from various areas, came to live and "join in". In the process, they mutually and willingly agreed to forsake their former loyalties, even including parts of their culture(s) in an effort to 'fit in' and be able to 'get along' with their varied new 'neighbors'. They willingly agreed to assume a NEW identity, that of "Americans".

Lately, in recent decades, a past that never existed has come to be 'romanticized' in our popular culture. We speak about a "multicultural" myth in which "we" (all of us being 'immigrants') came together to 'celebrate our differences'. Pure, unadulterated 'baloney'. It wasn't our 'differences' that helped us form the world's leading economy--it was our willingness to work around and PAST those differences, to de-emphasize them, and form a united society.

THat's all under attack now. We want a new, colorful 'multicultural' country. That won't happen. Differing cultures, bent upon emphasizing and accentuating their 'differences', don't work together--they CLASH. THey annoy each other, are misunderstood by each other, and offend each other...Ever hear of Yugoslavia? or Sri Lanka? or the Soviet Union? or the FORMER subcontinent of India (now three separate countries)? All examples of countries in which their various cultures 'celebrated' their uniqueness. All cases in which supposedly 'normal' people, Just like us, for one reason or another decided they just couldn't STAND their neighbor's culture for ONE MORE DAY, and they erupted into violence and bloodshed. Not because they 'like' violence, but because they could not 'put up with' another culture....Not a pretty picture.

If we want to be around 30 years from now, we'd better tone down our 'differences' and start trying to agree on a few 'similarities'. Leave the 'differences' for the holidays or private functions....the differences will always be there. The similarities may NOT.

Last edited by macmeal; 01-25-2008 at 05:31 PM..
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Old 01-25-2008, 04:26 PM
 
Location: Fort Worth/Dallas
11,878 posts, read 32,921,320 times
Reputation: 5539
Quote:
Originally Posted by shawnColumbus View Post
Let's use ABC Construction Company as a small-scale example. ABC Constuction builds homes all over Arizona. They employ 3 workers to do the
cosmetic stone and masonry work that adorns the front of each of their homes. The workers are Emilio, who is an illegal immigrant,
and Tom and Bob who are American citizens. Tom and Bob are in their early 20's and have only been working with ABC
for under a year. They've worked in many different fields, and will probably keep this job until they find
a higher paying job (next year). Their work is satisfactory, and they leave the job every day around 6:00PM.Emilio, on the other hand, is an EXCEPTIONAL craftsman. His stone work puts Tom and Bob's to shame. His stonework
on finished homes gets compliments all the time, whereas the other 2 workers either produce mediocre work or on
a few occassions needed re-done. I guess it's because Emilio thinks of this work as permanent and takes pride
in his work, whereas Tom and Bob are just working for a paycheck, and love complaining about it. But ABC needs them
because a year ago all they had was Emilio. There is just no one learning this skill in America.

Here's ABC's dillema - If they lay off Emilio because he's not a legal citizen, then their homes suffer. Emilio has not
"stolen" anyone's job. Emilio has a great skill, that he brought with him to this country and has found a
demand for that skill with ABC. For that open position, he is the best candidate that is available. People don't enter
the U.S. skill-less and steal jobs. You've got to stop thinking that way. They are being pulled here. The real problem is that Americans
don't want those jobs or there simply isn't enough people to fill them. The demand is there and the attraction is
like a magnet to anyone (regardless of what land they're from) who can fill that need. Shouldn't Emilio's work
be rewarded and shown off across the facades of hundreds of homes across Arizona? Don't you want this great
work on your home if you live in Phoenix? Or do you want Tom and Bob to do a mediocre job on it, and then you'll
just complain about the quality of ABC homes.

If they lay off Emilio, XYZ Construction company will pick him up, use his skill for their homes, and then ABC's sales and homes will
suffer consequently. And since Emilio only needs paid $3 an hour and will readily work til midnight (by his
own will) then the homes of XYZ Construction company will be that much cheaper. (I realize on a larger scale, but stay with
me on this) Now, enter the American consumer. They look at all the homes available to them and see ABC Const homes
are more expensive and the quality is lackluster. XYZ homes are better quality and cheaper. Guess which one they
buy? AND THAT IS THE PROBLEM! Americans will always go for the least expensive if the quality is equal. Why do
you think Wal-Mart is such the powerhouse it is in this country? CHEAP RULES in the U.S.!! And when "cheap is king" the companies have
to find a way to bring it to you cheaper. And it gets increasingly worse as the economy worsens. The worse off an
American is, the most likely they are to think they'll get ahead by buying cheaper products as a way to keep ahead
of the game. You cannot keep this from happening. Hence, this is why "buy American" never caught on. Because buying
American meant you had to spend more for the same product so that your neighbor could keep his job.

The truth is the world is flattening out. American's are overpaid and do very little work for their money in comparison
to other lands. There are people right over the border willing to work harder and longer for YOUR job. Now we can erect walls to keep
them out to protect our way of life (overpaid) or we can accept that the demand will bring those people to us.
History has shown that you cannot keep a demand from being met - it will find a way. Even if it means these
Mexicans risk their life crossing the border in a gas tank of an 18 wheeler. That's a pretty strong desire to
want to work for less than you at your job. Face it - we are the richest country on the planet and the majority
of the rest of the world is poor. This balance of power will shift within the next 100 years. We should accept it
and adapt and stop holding onto what is changing and trying to keep it from changing.

In my opinion the only thing we can do about it is to create a nation of hard working individuals who take
pride in their work, work hard, and do it as well as anyone else around the globe will. We need to stop looking
for hand-outs from the gov't and stop breeding generations of families on welfare. If Americans were thought of
as the hardest working people than there wouldn't be a need for an illegal immigrant to do that job for us.
We also need to let those jobs go to them and ADAPT! USE YOUR TALENT in this great nation that allows you to do
whatever you choose. And realize that there will be competition from your neighbor across the street and your neighbor across the border.
Your entire story is based upon assumptions, and a very negative view of the American worker. You "assume" that Emilio is a better craftsman than his legal American counterparts, and although you mention Emilio is here illegally you view that as a minor issue, when both the employer and Emilio are breaking several laws. The employer, by falsifying records to be able to pay Emilio legally, and/or Emilio himself who has no regard for the law and furnished forged documents which is a felony.

Too many times on this forum I see people putting down the quality of the American worker in favor of someone who came to this country illegally. These stereotypes are growing tiresome and assumptions such as these will not be allowed.

In short, watch your wording on future posts because I will not tolerate assumptions based upon negative stereotypes for either side of the issue.

If you want to step up to the plate and offer something that is more substantial, please do so. Count this as strikes one and two on your behalf.
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Old 01-25-2008, 04:30 PM
 
Location: Colorado
10,017 posts, read 16,692,551 times
Reputation: 2086
Quote:
Originally Posted by Synopsis View Post
Your entire story is based upon assumptions, and a very negative view of the American worker. You "assume" that Emilio is a better craftsman than his legal American counterparts, and although you mention Emilio is here illegally you view that as a minor issue, when both the employer and Emilio are breaking several laws. The employer, by falsifying records to be able to pay Emilio legally, and/or Emilio himself who has no regard for the law and furnished forged documents which is a felony.

Too many times on this forum I see people putting down the quality of the American worker in favor of someone who came to this country illegally. These stereotypes are growing tiresome and assumptions such as these will not be allowed.

In short, watch your wording on future posts because I will not tolerate assumptions based upon negative stereotypes for either side of the issue.

If you want to step up to the plate and offer something that is more substantial, please do so. Count this as strikes one and two on your behalf.


Wow thanks for that.
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Old 01-25-2008, 04:36 PM
 
608 posts, read 880,836 times
Reputation: 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kele View Post
I disagree completely as do my Apache cousins living on the rez in Oklahoma.

This country is not now, nor has it ever been a "White Anglo-Saxon" country and while Caucasians have become the majority in the past, that does not mean that they alone form the backbone of this country. This statement assumes that this country is strictly populated by Americans of European extraction and nothing could be further from the truth.

The America of my grandparent's time became a melting pot for a plethora of legal immigrants from all over the world who desired above all, to be a part of this great country, contributing their lives and the lives of their progeny to ensure their place in society as United States citizens.

I am proud of my Scandanavian, European, and Native American lineage, but I certainly don't dwell on it. Above all, I am proud to be an American. You should not be so negligent as to pin the label of "White Anglo Saxon" on the majority of Americans. Most of us, if we are at least second generation Americans, are mutts with the blood of many peoples running through our veins.

Personally, I reject any sort of label which attempts to fit me into any racial stereotype. I am what I am--an American. Race is merely a man-made construct which has caused a great deal of division and heartache in this country. There are so many problems facing this country at this point in time and we'll never come together on any of them if we continue to be divided by stereotypes. I'd rather be a part of the solution than a part of the problem.
Yup, I am a mutt too. I always check other. Census is the reinforcement attempting to classify people in racial categories. Anyway, maybe we should look towards the EU and see how things are going there. WE may be making more of this than we need to. EU Immigration: Immigration to the European Union - European Immigration - Europe Immigration - EU Passport and Immigration in the European Union: problem or solution? - OECD Observer

In theory one should be able to work, live and retire where they want. Similar to what we have today among the 50 states and commonwealths. With all of the chaos in eastern europe one would expect unemployemnt to be high and countries to be flooded with workers shifting unemployment yet of the member states unemployemnt dropped from 7.9% in 2006 to 6.9%. Still higher than the US 4.8% but not as bad as one would expect with this open policy. And the Euro and Pound continue to rise against the dollar. Hmmmm
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Old 01-25-2008, 05:26 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,612,395 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonCynic View Post

In theory one should be able to work, live and retire where they want. Similar to what we have today among the 50 states and commonwealths. With all of the chaos in eastern europe one would expect unemployemnt to be high and countries to be flooded with workers shifting unemployment yet of the member states unemployemnt dropped from 7.9% in 2006 to 6.9%. Still higher than the US 4.8% but not as bad as one would expect with this open policy. And the Euro and Pound continue to rise against the dollar. Hmmmm
In theory, I should be able to leave my car unlocked with a roll of "20's" on the seat, with the engine running, while I pop into the market to pick up an item. But I don't feel confident enough in my theory to trust it altogether. So I shut off my engine, lock my car, and hide my cash. There are laws protecting me. but I'm not sure every passer-by agrees with these laws, or with my theory. I SHOULD be able to do some things, but practically speaking, I can't.
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Old 01-25-2008, 06:12 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,615,542 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonCynic View Post
Yup, I am a mutt too. I always check other. Census is the reinforcement attempting to classify people in racial categories. Anyway, maybe we should look towards the EU and see how things are going there. WE may be making more of this than we need to. EU Immigration: Immigration to the European Union - European Immigration - Europe Immigration - EU Passport and Immigration in the European Union: problem or solution? - OECD Observer

In theory one should be able to work, live and retire where they want. Similar to what we have today among the 50 states and commonwealths. With all of the chaos in eastern europe one would expect unemployemnt to be high and countries to be flooded with workers shifting unemployment yet of the member states unemployemnt dropped from 7.9% in 2006 to 6.9%. Still higher than the US 4.8% but not as bad as one would expect with this open policy. And the Euro and Pound continue to rise against the dollar. Hmmmm
Apples and oranges there.

For a country to join the EU; they need to get their collective socio-economic houses in order first.

Read that reform their legal systems, etc.

Till Mexico is willing to do that same thing; our southern border needs to be kept sealed and the laws dealing with illegals here in the USA enforced.
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Old 01-29-2008, 10:25 PM
 
Location: MN
1,669 posts, read 5,474,449 times
Reputation: 940
Quote:
Originally Posted by mkfarnam View Post
try 20 million.
Right, give them amnesty and very few will come forward to be documented yet they'll still live in sheds and garages, and the amount coming in here illegally will double and with in a year the ones that received amnesty will be replace by twice as many illegals.
You have no idea what happened after the 1986 amnesty do you.
Wake Up.
I don't think lukeache was born yet in 1986.

The whole amnesty argument really makes me mad after recently going through the legal immigration process for my foreign wife. We had to spend over a year apart while waiting for her paperwork to be processed and I spent well over $1,000 in fees to get her here the legal way.

Why should mexicans and south americans be able to walk across the border and get amnesty when there is currently a 26 year waiting list for Filipinos trying to get here the legal way? They are willing to work just as hard.

The whole argument of illegal aliens doing the jobs that Americans will not do is total BS also. There is no job that Americans will not do, only jobs that they will not do for as cheap as illegal aliens.
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Old 01-30-2008, 06:41 AM
 
18 posts, read 33,568 times
Reputation: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by shawnColumbus View Post
Let's use ABC Construction Company as a small-scale example. ABC Constuction builds homes all over Arizona. They employ 3 workers to do the
cosmetic stone and masonry work that adorns the front of each of their homes. The workers are Emilio, who is an illegal immigrant,
and Tom and Bob who are American citizens. Tom and Bob are in their early 20's and have only been working with ABC
for under a year. They've worked in many different fields, and will probably keep this job until they find
a higher paying job (next year). Their work is satisfactory, and they leave the job every day around 6:00PM.Emilio, on the other hand, is an EXCEPTIONAL craftsman. His stone work puts Tom and Bob's to shame. His stonework
on finished homes gets compliments all the time, whereas the other 2 workers either produce mediocre work or on
a few occassions needed re-done. I guess it's because Emilio thinks of this work as permanent and takes pride
in his work, whereas Tom and Bob are just working for a paycheck, and love complaining about it. But ABC needs them
because a year ago all they had was Emilio. There is just no one learning this skill in America.

Here's ABC's dillema - If they lay off Emilio because he's not a legal citizen, then their homes suffer. Emilio has not
"stolen" anyone's job. Emilio has a great skill, that he brought with him to this country and has found a
demand for that skill with ABC. For that open position, he is the best candidate that is available. People don't enter
the U.S. skill-less and steal jobs. You've got to stop thinking that way. They are being pulled here. The real problem is that Americans
don't want those jobs or there simply isn't enough people to fill them. The demand is there and the attraction is
like a magnet to anyone (regardless of what land they're from) who can fill that need. Shouldn't Emilio's work
be rewarded and shown off across the facades of hundreds of homes across Arizona? Don't you want this great
work on your home if you live in Phoenix? Or do you want Tom and Bob to do a mediocre job on it, and then you'll
just complain about the quality of ABC homes.

If they lay off Emilio, XYZ Construction company will pick him up, use his skill for their homes, and then ABC's sales and homes will
suffer consequently. And since Emilio only needs paid $3 an hour and will readily work til midnight (by his
own will) then the homes of XYZ Construction company will be that much cheaper. (I realize on a larger scale, but stay with
me on this) Now, enter the American consumer. They look at all the homes available to them and see ABC Const homes
are more expensive and the quality is lackluster. XYZ homes are better quality and cheaper. Guess which one they
buy? AND THAT IS THE PROBLEM! Americans will always go for the least expensive if the quality is equal. Why do
you think Wal-Mart is such the powerhouse it is in this country? CHEAP RULES in the U.S.!! And when "cheap is king" the companies have
to find a way to bring it to you cheaper. And it gets increasingly worse as the economy worsens. The worse off an
American is, the most likely they are to think they'll get ahead by buying cheaper products as a way to keep ahead
of the game. You cannot keep this from happening. Hence, this is why "buy American" never caught on. Because buying
American meant you had to spend more for the same product so that your neighbor could keep his job.

The truth is the world is flattening out. American's are overpaid and do very little work for their money in comparison
to other lands. There are people right over the border willing to work harder and longer for YOUR job. Now we can erect walls to keep
them out to protect our way of life (overpaid) or we can accept that the demand will bring those people to us.
History has shown that you cannot keep a demand from being met - it will find a way. Even if it means these
Mexicans risk their life crossing the border in a gas tank of an 18 wheeler. That's a pretty strong desire to
want to work for less than you at your job. Face it - we are the richest country on the planet and the majority
of the rest of the world is poor. This balance of power will shift within the next 100 years. We should accept it
and adapt and stop holding onto what is changing and trying to keep it from changing.

In my opinion the only thing we can do about it is to create a nation of hard working individuals who take
pride in their work, work hard, and do it as well as anyone else around the globe will. We need to stop looking
for hand-outs from the gov't and stop breeding generations of families on welfare. If Americans were thought of
as the hardest working people than there wouldn't be a need for an illegal immigrant to do that job for us.
We also need to let those jobs go to them and ADAPT! USE YOUR TALENT in this great nation that allows you to do
whatever you choose. And realize that there will be competition from your neighbor across the street and your neighbor across the border.
---------------------------

If they (Mexican illegals) are such hard workers, why don't they work a little harder at making THEIR OWN country a little BETTER!!! You are basically saying Americans are lazy and that deeply offends me. At one point in the 1960s, there was actually a net immigration loss - more people were leaving than actually migrated here - yet the lawns were mowed, the rooms were cleaned, the houses were built - heck we even put a man on the moon - to say that this nation suddenly over the past thirty years cannot function without the labor of illegals is ridiculous.


I always get kick out of those who try to justify illegals through economics -Illegal is ILLEGAL no matter how you slice them....

Oh..and buy the way..I recently moved into an apartment complex that is brand new...the town home I live in was never lived in before...it was built by a company that was recently fined for hiring illegals - I did not know this before I signed the lease and intend to move when it is up - but - it is absolutely the cheapest built place I have ever lived in, despite the fact that it is new....I can hear every word my next door neighbors speak....two of the heat vents in the place have already broken and do not distribute the heat...the garage door was not assembled correctly..don't give me no crap about XYZ homes being better..my mom and dad's place was built in 1969 and has needed hardly any maintenance in the 39 years since....it was built buy...wow...Americans..for a steep price considering 1969 dollars...but excellent quality that has withstood time....YOU ALWAYS GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR......
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