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Old 01-30-2008, 01:11 PM
 
9,742 posts, read 9,073,952 times
Reputation: 2049

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Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonCynic View Post
In theory one should be able to work, live and retire where they want.
I've never heard of this theory. Who proposed it?

On the other hand, there is the well accepted principle of sovereignty, which blows your "theory" into tiny little bits.
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Old 01-30-2008, 09:30 PM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,819,682 times
Reputation: 22174
Quote:
Originally Posted by shawnColumbus View Post
The workers are Emilio, who is an illegal immigrant,
and Tom and Bob who are American citizens. Tom and Bob are in their early 20's and have only been working with ABC
for under a year. They've worked in many different fields, and will probably keep this job until they find
a higher paying job (next year). Their work is satisfactory, and they leave the job every day around 6:00PM.Emilio, on the other hand, is an EXCEPTIONAL craftsman. His stone work puts Tom and Bob's to shame. His stonework
on finished homes gets compliments all the time, whereas the other 2 workers either produce mediocre work or on
a few occassions needed re-done. I guess it's because Emilio thinks of this work as permanent and takes pride
in his work, whereas Tom and Bob are just working for a paycheck, and love complaining about it. But ABC needs them
because a year ago all they had was Emilio. There is just no one learning this skill in America.

That is very racist against Americans. Since when did Americans become inferior and lacking craftsmanship? And where in Mexico is all this evidence of Emilio's craftsmanship?

If Tom and Bob are such losers because they are Americans, and Emilio and his people are such winners -- then why are Emilio and his friends fleeing their own country? And why can Mexicans only make it if they come to the country of losers?

You have a very anti-American position -- and it really doesn't make sense when the USA is the country with the much higher standard of living for much more of it's people.
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Old 01-30-2008, 09:31 PM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,819,682 times
Reputation: 22174
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvxplorer View Post
I've never heard of this theory. Who proposed it?

On the other hand, there is the well accepted principle of sovereignty, which blows your "theory" into tiny little bits.
The one-world government theory, world without borders. Utopia.
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Old 01-30-2008, 09:44 PM
 
Location: Oregon
1,169 posts, read 3,308,646 times
Reputation: 572
Quote:
Originally Posted by cousinsal View Post
You're totally correct - no "fringe group" could shut down the Capitol switchboards - it was us 75-80% of citizens AGAINST illegal immigration. We finally scared them, and now the governments in the states are coming up with solutions because the gosh-durn federal government won't do what they're supposed to do! 46 states have been legislating laws against illegals - that's 46!!
Which 4 aren't, do you know? How do you find that info?
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Old 01-30-2008, 09:55 PM
 
Location: Oregon
1,169 posts, read 3,308,646 times
Reputation: 572
Quote:
Originally Posted by shawnColumbus View Post
Let's use ABC Construction Company as a small-scale example. ABC Constuction builds homes all over Arizona. They employ 3 workers to do the
cosmetic stone and masonry work that adorns the front of each of their homes. The workers are Emilio, who is an illegal immigrant,
and Tom and Bob who are American citizens. Tom and Bob are in their early 20's and have only been working with ABC
for under a year. They've worked in many different fields, and will probably keep this job until they find
a higher paying job (next year). Their work is satisfactory, and they leave the job every day around 6:00PM.Emilio, on the other hand, is an EXCEPTIONAL craftsman. His stone work puts Tom and Bob's to shame. His stonework
on finished homes gets compliments all the time, whereas the other 2 workers either produce mediocre work or on
a few occassions needed re-done. I guess it's because Emilio thinks of this work as permanent and takes pride
in his work, whereas Tom and Bob are just working for a paycheck, and love complaining about it. But ABC needs them
because a year ago all they had was Emilio. There is just no one learning this skill in America.

Here's ABC's dillema - If they lay off Emilio because he's not a legal citizen, then their homes suffer. Emilio has not
"stolen" anyone's job. Emilio has a great skill, that he brought with him to this country and has found a
demand for that skill with ABC. For that open position, he is the best candidate that is available. People don't enter
the U.S. skill-less and steal jobs. You've got to stop thinking that way. They are being pulled here. The real problem is that Americans
don't want those jobs or there simply isn't enough people to fill them. The demand is there and the attraction is
like a magnet to anyone (regardless of what land they're from) who can fill that need. Shouldn't Emilio's work
be rewarded and shown off across the facades of hundreds of homes across Arizona? Don't you want this great
work on your home if you live in Phoenix? Or do you want Tom and Bob to do a mediocre job on it, and then you'll
just complain about the quality of ABC homes.

If they lay off Emilio, XYZ Construction company will pick him up, use his skill for their homes, and then ABC's sales and homes will
suffer consequently. And since Emilio only needs paid $3 an hour and will readily work til midnight (by his
own will) then the homes of XYZ Construction company will be that much cheaper. (I realize on a larger scale, but stay with
me on this) Now, enter the American consumer. They look at all the homes available to them and see ABC Const homes
are more expensive and the quality is lackluster. XYZ homes are better quality and cheaper. Guess which one they
buy? AND THAT IS THE PROBLEM! Americans will always go for the least expensive if the quality is equal. Why do
you think Wal-Mart is such the powerhouse it is in this country? CHEAP RULES in the U.S.!! And when "cheap is king" the companies have
to find a way to bring it to you cheaper. And it gets increasingly worse as the economy worsens. The worse off an
American is, the most likely they are to think they'll get ahead by buying cheaper products as a way to keep ahead
of the game. You cannot keep this from happening. Hence, this is why "buy American" never caught on. Because buying
American meant you had to spend more for the same product so that your neighbor could keep his job.

The truth is the world is flattening out. American's are overpaid and do very little work for their money in comparison
to other lands. There are people right over the border willing to work harder and longer for YOUR job. Now we can erect walls to keep
them out to protect our way of life (overpaid) or we can accept that the demand will bring those people to us.
History has shown that you cannot keep a demand from being met - it will find a way. Even if it means these
Mexicans risk their life crossing the border in a gas tank of an 18 wheeler. That's a pretty strong desire to
want to work for less than you at your job. Face it - we are the richest country on the planet and the majority
of the rest of the world is poor. This balance of power will shift within the next 100 years. We should accept it
and adapt and stop holding onto what is changing and trying to keep it from changing.

In my opinion the only thing we can do about it is to create a nation of hard working individuals who take
pride in their work, work hard, and do it as well as anyone else around the globe will. We need to stop looking
for hand-outs from the gov't and stop breeding generations of families on welfare. If Americans were thought of
as the hardest working people than there wouldn't be a need for an illegal immigrant to do that job for us.
We also need to let those jobs go to them and ADAPT! USE YOUR TALENT in this great nation that allows you to do
whatever you choose. And realize that there will be competition from your neighbor across the street and your neighbor across the border.
This makes an assumption that all the illegal workers are very highly skilled as opposed to legal US workers. I worked in pool sales/construction for a couple of years and had the opportunity to observe some new homes being built by probably all illegal crews. I've seen homes built before by a family member in home construction for comparison. Let me tell you these homes built by illegal crews went up really fast, but the quality sucked. On the flip side I worked with some masonry guys who were really good, but some were just fast and cheap. I think the reason the businesses like to hire illegals is they are cheap and fast. Not necessariliy a good thing in my opinion.
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Old 01-30-2008, 09:56 PM
 
Location: Oklahoma(formerly SoCalif) Originally Mich,
13,387 posts, read 16,231,784 times
Reputation: 4611
Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlaT2 View Post
Which 4 aren't, do you know? How do you find that info?
California, Illinois, Texas and New York.
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Old 01-30-2008, 10:03 PM
 
Location: Oregon
1,169 posts, read 3,308,646 times
Reputation: 572
Quote:
Originally Posted by mkfarnam View Post
California, Illinois, Texas and New York.
Thanks. I kind of figured California was one of the 4. The main reason I so want out of here. Moved here because my husband was born here, but it is not my cup of tea.
What about Oregon? Do they have any enforcement legislation pending you know about?
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Old 01-30-2008, 10:17 PM
 
Location: Oklahoma(formerly SoCalif) Originally Mich,
13,387 posts, read 16,231,784 times
Reputation: 4611
Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlaT2 View Post
Thanks. I kind of figured California was one of the 4. The main reason I so want out of here. Moved here because my husband was born here, but it is not my cup of tea.
What about Oregon? Do they have any enforcement legislation pending you know about?
More and more states are in the proccess of initiating the new Law.

With Oklahoma and Arizona in the lead, we now have Indiana, Wisconsin, Kansas, Missouri and Tennesse getting ready to follow. and the more states that step up will force other states to follow. "The domino effect"

I'm not sure what Oregan has planned at this time.
There's another forum you can check with , they may have an answer, Illegal Immigration ALIPAC
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Old 01-31-2008, 12:37 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,632,169 times
Reputation: 2983
Amnesty isn't a "good idea" because it rewards the "bad" behavior of some, while "punishing" the law-abiding. It's "bad" because it's one-sided, "giving" rewards which aren't deserved, and offering no benefit to the 'team players'. It's "bad" because it sets up a false concept of entitlement, emboldening and encouraging still MORE 'lawbreaking' in the future. Much of the "momentum" of those presently seeking amnesty is based on the fact that we "already HAD a big amnesty, in the past". If we could "do it for THEM", the reasoning goes, why can't we "do it AGAIN"?

Amnesty produces not gratitude, but anger, feelings of entitlement, and causes FAR more resentment than it relieves. Amnesty is an attempt to enter into a "Gentlemen's agreement" where many of the players aren't "gentlemen". Bad idea, with a PROVEN track record of failing to do much more that 'stir people up". In the end, amnesty is simply dishonest.
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Old 01-31-2008, 12:41 PM
 
Location: southern california
55,237 posts, read 72,540,398 times
Reputation: 47459
did 7 amnesties already, why not another?
well if i stole 7 chickens would the farmer miss one more?
limited resources no?
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