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Old 01-03-2008, 08:36 PM
 
138 posts, read 472,177 times
Reputation: 43

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Quote:
Originally Posted by blue pekoe View Post
Most Americans want our immigration laws enforced. If that weren't the case, Congress would have opted for another disastrous amnesty and candidates wouldn't have to care much about how they present their positions on the issue. But, anti-enforcement people like to pretend that our views are of some fringe minority group because they can't come to grips with the reality that they are the ones who are out of step with rest of America.
Ok, well then why didn't Congress pass HR4437? If you are so in step with what Americans feel, why was your America, with your "average Americans" all singing in one united voice not able to get that bill passed through Congress which would have made all of the undocumented in this country into felons? I guess our little "anti-enforcement" fringe group as you would call us has a few more supporters than you would care to recognize as well. Again, it is not all black and white.

 
Old 01-03-2008, 08:51 PM
 
Location: Pa
20,310 posts, read 18,902,906 times
Reputation: 6517
Quote:
Originally Posted by bklynchapin View Post
Ok, well then why didn't Congress pass HR4437? If you are so in step with what Americans feel, why was your America, with your "average Americans" all singing in one united voice not able to get that bill passed through Congress which would have made all of the undocumented in this country into felons? I guess our little "anti-enforcement" fringe group as you would call us has a few more supporters than you would care to recognize as well. Again, it is not all black and white.
LOL Since when does congress actually listen to the voter? No they listen instead to the loudest lobby, they listen instead to who is most likely to pad their reelection coffers. One has very little to do with the other.
If they listened to the voter they would never see a pay raise again.
If they listened to the voter they would have term limits.
If they listened to the voter we would have a new tax system.
No what the voters ask for and get are 2 completely different things.
 
Old 01-03-2008, 08:57 PM
 
138 posts, read 472,177 times
Reputation: 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman01 View Post
LOL Since when does congress actually listen to the voter? No they listen instead to the loudest lobby, they listen instead to who is most likely to pad their reelection coffers. One has very little to do with the other.
If they listened to the voter they would never see a pay raise again.
If they listened to the voter they would have term limits.
If they listened to the voter we would have a new tax system.
No what the voters ask for and get are 2 completely different things.
I agree with you wholeheartedly on that one. I was simply trying to show why Bluepekoe's logic was flawed. It was in the quote.
 
Old 01-03-2008, 09:18 PM
 
Location: Pa
20,310 posts, read 18,902,906 times
Reputation: 6517
Quote:
Originally Posted by bklynchapin View Post
I agree with you wholeheartedly on that one. I was simply trying to show why Bluepekoe's logic was flawed. It was in the quote.
Fair enough. What does get under my skin is when folks try to compare illegals to legals. There is no comparison. Other than that they are both considered a form of immigrant. My wife is a legal immigrant. Came here legally. Has observed and obeyed our laws. Is improving on her english skills. Has no interest in trying to change our laws, our culture or wave the flag of her parent nation over our home. In short she appreciates our generosity, and respects our laws.
 
Old 01-03-2008, 09:26 PM
 
4,828 posts, read 6,795,842 times
Reputation: 620
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
IMHO: the pro illegal crowd is losing the war of public opinion hence their increasingly inane comments.
Really? the hardliners on immigration didn't fare to well even in conservative republican primary in iowa. Mcain beat hunter, thompson and ron paul.
 
Old 01-03-2008, 09:38 PM
 
138 posts, read 472,177 times
Reputation: 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman01 View Post
Fair enough. What does get under my skin is when folks try to compare illegals to legals. There is no comparison. Other than that they are both considered a form of immigrant. My wife is a legal immigrant. Came here legally. Has observed and obeyed our laws. Is improving on her english skills. Has no interest in trying to change our laws, our culture or wave the flag of her parent nation over our home. In short she appreciates our generosity, and respects our laws.
I think people use the resources they have available to them. If undocumented immigrants could have come into the country legally, I think that most of them would have. We are living in an increasingly globalized world where not only people but goods and ideas are flying all over the planet with greater ease. But who gets the visas to travel or work in other places? Usually people with connections, people with money. I know many people who have come here legally who have pulled a few strings or talked to the right person to get paperwork expedited. In this world, no matter where you are, it's all about who you know and how much money you have. I think that makes for a lousy way of choosing who deserves the American Dream.
 
Old 01-03-2008, 09:50 PM
 
Location: Pa
20,310 posts, read 18,902,906 times
Reputation: 6517
Quote:
Originally Posted by bklynchapin View Post
I think people use the resources they have available to them. If undocumented immigrants could have come into the country legally, I think that most of them would have. We are living in an increasingly globalized world where not only people but goods and ideas are flying all over the planet with greater ease. But who gets the visas to travel or work in other places? Usually people with connections, people with money. I know many people who have come here legally who have pulled a few strings or talked to the right person to get paperwork expedited. In this world, no matter where you are, it's all about who you know and how much money you have. I think that makes for a lousy way of choosing who deserves the American Dream.
I think bank robbers if given money would choose not to rob banks too. That doesn't mean that they deserve a free pass. That applies to (Illegal) Immigrants. I pulled no strings for my wife, had no connections. We did it the legal and honest way. Making excuses for criminal behavior only reenforces the behavior. It is for our nation to choose who gets a visa and who doesn't. It is of no importance nor is it relative if the applicant agrees or disagrees with the process we use.
 
Old 01-03-2008, 09:57 PM
 
138 posts, read 472,177 times
Reputation: 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman01 View Post
My wife is a legal immigrant. Came here legally. Has observed and obeyed our laws. Is improving on her english skills. Has no interest in trying to change our laws, our culture or wave the flag of her parent nation over our home. In short she appreciates our generosity, and respects our laws.
I think you might be generalizing somewhat about undocumented immigrants. Most do try to learn English, but it is really difficult as an adult, especially if you are working all day and don't have time to do it. In most places I have been ESL classes are booked solid. I have been trying to learn French for a really long time with very limited success. I have paid for various classes but can't seem to get the hang of it.

As to waving the flag around, most undocumented immigrants would never do that for fear of bringing attention to themselves. You are playing on images from the protest rallies which hada very specific context. HR4437 was being considered in the Senate after already having passed in the House, which would have turned every undocumented person in this country into a felon overnight. Many believed they had to march to show their opposition to what they viewed as a cruel and mean-spirited law. They probably should not have waved Mexican flags or flags from any other country. But mixed in with those pictures are many US flags as well. The message was supposed to be unity. Also, those marching were not only undocumented immigrants, but also legal residents and US citizens.

Now I am sure that there are undocumented immigrants who fit every stereotype, as criminals and as deadbeats. And there are also really hard workers and nice people that any of us could get along with if we got to know them. I for one feel extremely lucky to not have been born into a situation that forced me to make the kind of decision that undocumented immigrants have had to make. To leave their homes, to live in the shadows, to fear deportation or worse every day. I know it was their decision to come over here, but it just makes me wonder ehat the circumstance must have been like to make that choice.
 
Old 01-03-2008, 10:19 PM
 
1,156 posts, read 1,876,473 times
Reputation: 317
Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeache View Post
In an effort to educate people on the immigration issue and hopefully counter the overwhelmingly uneducated statements expressed here with some economical facts, I am posting an article I read in the Wall Street Journal this last Monday. This article explains in detail the real consequences and the impact of legal and illegal immigration. In essence, It totally supports my theory that this immigration problem is truly blown out of proportion.


Keeping Book on Immigration
December 31, 2007; Page A12




The Census Bureau informs us that when the clock strikes midnight, the U.S. population will exceed 303.1 million. That represents a one-year increase of 0.9% and a 22% increase since 1990, when our population stood at a mere 248.7 million souls. A lot of this growth is driven by immigration, a topic that has dominated the news for much of 2007.

Talk radio hosts, cable newscasters and Presidential hopefuls insist that foreign nationals drive crime rates, swell welfare rolls and steal jobs. But the data tell a very different story.

Between 1994 and 2005, the illegal immigrant population in the U.S. is estimated to have doubled to around 12 million. Yet according the Department of Justice, over that same period the violent crime rate in the U.S. declined by 34.2% and the property crime rate fell by 26.4%, reaching their lowest levels since 1973. Crime has fallen in cities with the largest immigrant populations -- such as New York, Los Angeles, Chicago and Miami -- as well as border cities like San Diego and El Paso, Texas.

A recent paper by the Immigration Policy Center, an advocacy group, notes that "Numerous studies by independent researchers and government commissions over the past 100 years repeatedly and consistently have found that immigrants are less likely to commit crimes or be behind bars than the native born." Today, immigrants on balance are five times less likely to be in prison than someone born here.

It's not because law-abiding foreign professionals from India and China are compensating for criminally inclined low-skill Latinos. Immigrants from countries that comprise the bulk of our illegal alien population -- including Mexicans, Salvadorans and Guatemalans -- have lower incarceration rates than the native-born.

Another popular belief is that immigrants come here to go on the dole. The data show that welfare caseloads have fallen as illegal immigration has risen. As Peter Wehner and Yuval Levin report in the December issue of Commentary magazine, "Since the high-water mark in 1994, the national welfare caseload has declined by 60%. Virtually every state in the union has reduced its caseload by at least a third, and some have achieved reductions of over 90%."

Apparently immigrants don't drive welfare caseloads anymore than they drive the U.S. crime rate. The authors go on to note that, "Not only have the numbers of people on welfare plunged, but, in the wake of the 1996 welfare-reform bill, overall poverty, child poverty, black child poverty and child hunger have all decreased, while employment figures for single mothers have risen."

For all the talk about the "invasion" of million upon million of job-consuming immigrants, the unemployment rate stands at 4.7%, and job growth continues apace. Immigrants aren't stealing jobs but filling them. The economic activity they create as consumers and entrepreneurs contributes to the overall economic growth.

None of this is to argue that illegal immigration doesn't have costs, especially in border communities and states with large public benefits. In the post-9/11 environment, knowing who's in the country is more important than ever. That's an argument for better regulating cross-border labor flows, not ending them.

The best way to reduce pressure on the border is by providing legal ways for people to come and work. With the Bracero guest-worker program of the 1950s, illegal entries from Mexico declined to a trickle. A similar program today could have much the same effect, while serving our homeland security and economic interests. On balance, the evidence shows that immigrants are still an asset to the U.S.
Twisted article. There has been far more crime since illegals have come here and everyone knows it!! We in So. Ca. have been right in the midst of it as it has become worse and worse, and Los Angeles County Jail consistently has 2/3+ of it's inmates illegal. Your article is an insult to the many victims of illegals crimes over the years. We used to not have to lock our doors, till illegals came that is. To save welfare due to so many illegals on it, now single people without children must clean city parks, etc. for 20 hrs. per week to get any welfare....so this would bring the total number on welfare down some.
 
Old 01-03-2008, 10:39 PM
 
1,156 posts, read 1,876,473 times
Reputation: 317
Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeache View Post
I still do not understand why some people are so passionate about this subject, unless you are ignorant, uneducated and prejudiced. My position on this issue is neutral, illegal or legal immigration so far has had 0 impact on the quality of my life. I obviously do not agree with anything that is against the law, but it is the Government's responsibility to keep illegals out of the country, not mine.

It seems like a lot of these passionate anti-illegal are people that resent their own failures and try to blame it on illegals. Essentially, the "illegal immigrant" has become the boogeyman for people that are failures in life. Geez, I feel so threatened by someone who does not even speak English and has a 4th grade education. Irrational!
Why speak on something you know nothing about? Lucky you have not been affected personally as so many have. Here in So. CA illegals have completely and totally taken over many job fields...this means that you cannot find citizens working in them any more, and illegals have higher positions here also such as big name grocery store managers, own businesses. All run by illegals now: Construction, gardeners, housekeepers, hotel workers, nannies, upholstery, cabinets, on and on. Citizens don't stand a chance in many industries anymore, it's illegals/hispanics only.
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