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Old 01-04-2008, 12:33 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,610,630 times
Reputation: 2983

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Quote:
Originally Posted by greatbasinguide View Post
This post reinforces my contention that much of the anti illegal movement is racially based. I have a hunch that if 12 million young French women poured over the border illegally we would not her so much squacking.
No rational person can deny that the illegal immigration debacle is one of intense interest to racists--(racists of MANY stripes). The only real argument is, "does illegal immigration have any OTHER considerations---are there legitimate areas of concern about it that have nothing to do with race?" I say absolutely, YES...It's a huge issue, racism or no. Racism is there, but doesn't cancel out the seriousness (or the LEGITIMACY) of the real issue...

In fact, I'll turn your argument around on YOU...I propose that "if 15 to 20 million white Europeans were living illegally in the United States, and causing the social and economic problems the "actual" (mostly Hispanic)illegals are causing, that they'd have almost ZERO sympathy from anyone here...The citizens of the US would rise up in unison and "toss them out" in short order. There would be LITTLE need for discussion, or guilty, hand-wringing arguments. I say it's the illegals' "minority" status that gets them much of the sympathy they DO get from the American 'elite'. In other words, the 'elite' find it 'fashionable' to rally to the aid of the non-white 'underdog'...it helps them cancel out some of the guilt that so many of them apparently feel. This 'elite' would have NO PATIENCE AT ALL with a massive influx of 'illegal whites'..the feeling would be, "take your problems back home---we have our own problems here"....

Last edited by macmeal; 01-04-2008 at 12:42 PM..

 
Old 01-04-2008, 01:20 PM
 
138 posts, read 471,827 times
Reputation: 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
No rational person can deny that the illegal immigration debacle is one of intense interest to racists--(racists of MANY stripes). The only real argument is, "does illegal immigration have any OTHER considerations---are there legitimate areas of concern about it that have nothing to do with race?" I say absolutely, YES...It's a huge issue, racism or no. Racism is there, but doesn't cancel out the seriousness (or the LEGITIMACY) of the real issue...
You make a very valid point and I like the way you write. It is reasoned and focused on an argument. It is a welcome addition to this thread which is rife with easy black and white statements. It is frustrating to hear for example that race is never an issue for people opposed to illegal immigration, but you are definitely right that it is not the only issue.

The scenario that you bring up about 11 million undocumented Europeans however can be misleading. I would submit that this scenario would not happen because of how Europeans are perceived culturally and racially. Again, when German, Irish, Italian & Eastern European Jews came into the country, there was a lot of opposition, but there were no laws prohibiting them from doing so. It was when immigrants from other continents began to arrive that the restrictive laws were passed. Many of those laws were passed to maintain the "ethnic balance" that existed in the country at that time.

I agree that the issue of diversity is a sexy issue for liberals. But then again, the issue of maintaining our national culture (for many WASP culture) is a sexy issue for conservatives. And they are each affected by race.

I gave you some rep by the way.
 
Old 01-04-2008, 01:28 PM
 
9,742 posts, read 9,058,667 times
Reputation: 2049
Quote:
Originally Posted by bklynchapin View Post
It is frustrating to hear for example that race is never an issue for people opposed to illegal immigration, but you are definitely right that it is not the only issue.
Race is an issue for racists, period. A (white) racist hates all Hispanic people, American or foreign born.

The fallacy we deal with is that all those who oppose illegal immigration are racist.

I hate no one, not even the illegals. So it's a bit more than frustrating to be called "racist" by a whole group of people that doesn't know me. To me, it is they who are hateful, not those of us who want to see a rational, controlled immigration process returned to practice.
 
Old 01-04-2008, 06:21 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,610,630 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by bklynchapin View Post
You make a very valid point and I like the way you write. It is reasoned and focused on an argument. It is a welcome addition to this thread which is rife with easy black and white statements. It is frustrating to hear for example that race is never an issue for people opposed to illegal immigration, but you are definitely right that it is not the only issue.

The scenario that you bring up about 11 million undocumented Europeans however can be misleading. I would submit that this scenario would not happen because of how Europeans are perceived culturally and racially. Again, when German, Irish, Italian & Eastern European Jews came into the country, there was a lot of opposition, but there were no laws prohibiting them from doing so. It was when immigrants from other continents began to arrive that the restrictive laws were passed. Many of those laws were passed to maintain the "ethnic balance" that existed in the country at that time.

I agree that the issue of diversity is a sexy issue for liberals. But then again, the issue of maintaining our national culture (for many WASP culture) is a sexy issue for conservatives. And they are each affected by race.

I gave you some rep by the way.
You make many noteworthy points here. The one thing, though, that you seem to have neglected is the simple "march of time". In addition to the well-spoken points you made about white immigrants being given more 'slack' than non-whites...(all too true), the plain fact is, that 85 or 100, or 125 years ago, we NEEDED "bodies"...period. Anyone with two strong arms, who could swing a pick, or tote a heavy 'load', could find a job. Knowledge of English--- or education, in general, was NOT a requirement--in fact, it was probably a detriment to the 'working stiff' to be educated....and this laboring class made up a HUGE percentage of the American population.

All other considerations aside, today it must be admitted that the need for poorly-educated, non-English speaking "grunt workers" is probably now at an all-time low---and dropping as we speak. Instead of America "needing" a steady stream of these rough-and-ready folks, America is now forced to find ways to ACCOMODATE them....and that's a HUGE change.

Racism is, and will continue to be, a factor...but so is changing technology, the ever-changing needs of society, and our collective ability to 'cope'. And of course, there's also the much-discussed fact that in those "old days" these immigrants came virtually without any government "safety net". It was 'sink or swim, take it or leave it'....No welfare, no food stamps, nobody 'pleading their case'....very, VERY different from today's situation.

Thanks for your insightful post....
 
Old 01-04-2008, 06:36 PM
 
3,712 posts, read 5,708,999 times
Reputation: 1285
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
You make many noteworthy points here. The one thing, though, that you seem to have neglected is the simple "march of time". In addition to the well-spoken points you made about white immigrants being given more 'slack' than non-whites...(all too true), the plain fact is, that 85 or 100, or 125 years ago, we NEEDED "bodies"...period. Anyone with two string arm who could swing a pick, or tote a heavy 'load', could find a job. Knowledge of English--- or education, in general, was NOT a requirement--in fact, it was probably a detriment to the 'working stiff' to be educated....and this laboring class made up a HUGE percentage of the American population.

All other considerations aside, it must be admitted that the need for poorly-educated, non-English speaking "grunt workers" is probably now at an all-time low---and dropping as we speak. Instead of America "needing" a steady stream of these rough-and-ready folks, America is now forced to find ways to ACCOMODATE them....and that's a HUGE change.

Racism is, and will continue to be, a factor...but so is changing technology, the ever-changing needs of society, and our collective ability to 'cope'. And of course, there's also the much-discussed fact that in those "old days" these immigrants came virtually without any government "safety net". It was 'sink or swim, take it or leave it'....No welfare, no food stamps, nobody 'pleading their case'....very, VERY different from today's situation.

Thanks for your insightful post....
When immigrants came to the US during the Great Wave there were jobs in the mills and factories that required little more than a strong back and a willingness to work. These jobs enabled many of the otherwise uneducated immigrants to move up the socioeconomic ladder and into the American middle class.
One of the major differences between previous waves of legal immigration and our current wave of illegal immigration is that these jobs that enabled so many to break out of poverty are gone and they won't be back. A majority of illegal immigrants never graduated from high school. If someone with an 8th grade education comes here to pick strawberries, I don't see much upward economic mobility in his future. He and his family will probably continue to require government subsidies for the rest of their lives.
This is one of the reasons illegal immigration must stop. We are importing another underclass.
 
Old 01-04-2008, 06:41 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,611,035 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvxplorer View Post
Race is an issue for racists, period. A (white) racist hates all Hispanic people, American or foreign born.

The fallacy we deal with is that all those who oppose illegal immigration are racist.

I hate no one, not even the illegals. So it's a bit more than frustrating to be called "racist" by a whole group of people that doesn't know me. To me, it is they who are hateful, not those of us who want to see a rational, controlled immigration process returned to practice.
What would be a sight would be a bunch of American Neo-Nazi skinheads mixing it up with a group of Spanish speaking Argentine Neo-Nazi's.
 
Old 01-04-2008, 06:42 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,610,630 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by andreabeth View Post
When immigrants came to the US during the Great Wave there were jobs in the mills and factories that required little more than a strong back and a willingness to work. These jobs enabled many of the otherwise uneducated immigrants to move up the socioeconomic ladder and into the American middle class.
One of the major differences between previous waves of legal immigration and our current wave of illegal immigration is that these jobs that enabled so many to break out of poverty are gone and they won't be back. A majority of illegal immigrants never graduated from high school. If someone with an 8th grade education comes here to pick strawberries, I don't see much upward economic mobility in his future. He and his family will probably continue to require government subsidies for the rest of their lives.
This is one of the reasons illegal immigration must stop. We are importing another underclass.
Well stated---and I might add, the truth of what you say holds, whether or not racism is brought into the picture. No one, regardless of his race or morals, could honestly predict a bright future for unskilled, poorly educated laborers. And the 'tough spot' they're in is not due, for the most part, to racism.
 
Old 01-07-2008, 07:24 AM
 
Location: Las Vegas
185 posts, read 319,401 times
Reputation: 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by bklynchapin View Post
Why does the anti-immigrant crowd insist on forgetting that the exact same arguments they are currently making were once used against all of those earlier waves of immigrants (they take jobs, they increase crime, they lower wages). Why do they insist on repeating ugly xenophobic tacticts that have been judged as wrongful and mean-spirited historically?
Are you new to the debate?

We are unhappy with the 10,000 ILLEGAL aliens breaking into the country everyday. It's the onslaught of the 30,000,000+ ILLEGAL invaders that is destroying the country.

OK now, lets sum it up;

LEGAL is GOOD.

ILLEGAL is BAD, get it yet?

It took immigrants over 200 years to build this country, ILLEGAL aliens are tearing it down overnight!
 
Old 01-07-2008, 10:36 AM
 
Location: Right Behind You
1 posts, read 1,926 times
Reputation: 10
New poster here. Sorry, couldn't let this one stand without a comment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blacknight04 View Post
There is now way in Hell the republicans can win any minority vote, be it black, hispanic, asian etc.
You really should do some research before expressing your ignorance so completely (but you probably should have learned that earlier in the thread).

From the 2004 Senate race in Arizona [url=http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/AZ/S/01/epolls.0.html]CNN.com Election 2004[/url]

VOTE BY RACE

Latino

McCain 74% Starky 25%

Other

McCain 62% Starky 30%

For your information, Starky was running as a Democrat. That's just one state. I would imagine Schwarzenegger would have a similar ratio in his California win as a Republican, and other races for other offices around the country also . The 2004 separation in the Presidential race was just a few percentage points in some cases in relation to voting by race.

Last edited by Vortex; 01-07-2008 at 10:44 AM.. Reason: bah, url link
 
Old 01-07-2008, 11:10 AM
 
130 posts, read 467,025 times
Reputation: 72
i could care less about the facts on "illegal immigration." all i would like to see is......simply to enforce the damn law, thats it, thats all i what to see, enforce the law

its like that one arguement about ppl who break into your house and start living there. u what them out of your house but then someone says, "but they doing your dishes and cleaning the house and taking out trash etc." what? that doesnt make sense! hey, its my house (country) i didnt ask for them to come here (to the U.S.) so i want them out of my house (country). anyways the arguement was something like that, u get my point.
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