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Old 01-02-2008, 11:55 PM
 
138 posts, read 471,994 times
Reputation: 43

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greatday View Post
A) No one here is "anti immigrant".
I have to agree that not all people who are against "illegal immigration" are racist or even anti-immigrant. But I am pretty sure that Zanman is anti-Mexican immigrant, whether it be legal or illegal and more than a little racist. I think we should focus on the arguments being made and not on which "side" we are on.

 
Old 01-03-2008, 12:11 AM
 
Location: Texas
8,062 posts, read 15,871,012 times
Reputation: 3677
"If you and your family were stuck in what you deemed a miserable situation, would you not do everything in your power to change that? I know that I would, even if that meant breaking the law."

Well, that's YOU. I was actually in this situation last year. I have a serious disease and no health care here. My situation was critical. Although I was declared totally disabled, I have had to wait 2 years for Medicare coverage. My good friends in England and in Canada begged me to come and live with them until I had health insurance so that I could receive free healthcare in their system.

I would have LOVED to go and live with my friends in England for a year but I didn't do it. Why? It's not right. The taxpayers in England should not have had to pay for my emergency care just because my country doesn't offer universal coverage. My friends are helping me purchase much cheaper medications in Canada and my English friend is sending me medications she no longer uses or was over-prescribed. In that way, I've been hanging on and my coverage starts on March 1, thankfully.

The immigrants who came here from Europe had to APPLY, have jobs, and family sponsors. If their paperwork wasn't in order, they weren't admitted. If they arrived ill, they were placed in quarantine. This is an ENTIRELY different situation than those bopping across the southern border demanding jobs and "rights." One set of my grandparents emigrated from Eastern Europe and they were so grateful to have jobs in the coal mines and to come to a country where they could practice their religion freely. They learned English quickly and didn't expect to be catered to in their language. If someone said they should be called hyphenated Americans, they would have been hurt and insulted.

I taught at a high school on the Border for several years. The folks who are here legally and work hard, as my ancestors did, are even MORE upset at this illegal invasion than we non-Hispanics are. My students' families would often catch illegals creeping through their backyards and they would call Border Patrol. A lot of my students themselves wanted to become Border Patrol agents because they were tired of the drugs and crime the illegals are bringing in. They were also tired of having to compete with illegals for jobs.

You may think you're being the epitome of PC by excusing illegal actions and the presence of millions of illegal immigrants but, actually, you are attempting to make fools of those who follow the rules and respect laws. Maybe you would run if things got tough but some of us were raised differently than that.
 
Old 01-03-2008, 12:12 AM
 
138 posts, read 471,994 times
Reputation: 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zanman View Post
Now tell me if you disagree that 60 hospitals have closed in California. Have they or are they still open for business treating the foul wretches spawned from that stink-hole Mexico ... Huh?
I forgot to quote Zanman on that last post. Now I may be mistaken here, but it doesn't sound like Zanman is just talking about the "illegal" Mexicans. It's a slippery slope.
 
Old 01-03-2008, 12:41 AM
 
138 posts, read 471,994 times
Reputation: 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by teatime View Post
"My friends are helping me purchase much cheaper medications in Canada and my English friend is sending me medications she no longer uses or was over-prescribed. In that way, I've been hanging on and my coverage starts on March 1, thankfully.
Isn't using medications prescribed to others against the law? Don't get me wrong, it sounds like you have valid reasons. That is all I am saying. Many people are trying to make this a clearcut black and white situation, and it is definitely not. I believe when laws are unjust, we should do everything in our power to fight them. Look at the Civil Rights movement. They broke the racist laws of the time to achieve equality. What about the Women's movement? Were any of those instances of disobeying the laws of their time justified?


Quote:
Originally Posted by teatime View Post
"The immigrants who came here from Europe had to APPLY, have jobs, and family sponsors. If their paperwork wasn't in order, they weren't admitted. If they arrived ill, they were placed in quarantine. This is an ENTIRELY different situation than those bopping across the southern border demanding jobs and "rights."
I am not saying it wasn't difficult to immigrate back then. Many did not make the journey across the Atlantic, but once in Ellis Island, only about 1% were turned back for the reasons you stated above. I used to work for the Lower East Side Tenement Museum in New York City, a museum about immigration history and I know that I was surprised by the similarities I found between the various different waves of immigration that this country has seen over its history. The current wave is no exception. Do you know that there existed the Chinese Exclusion Act, a law that specifically forbade all Chinese from entering the country. It was the law of the land from 1882 and lasted over 60 years. That was a racist unjust law, one that I would have proudly fought against. Fighting unjust totalitarian laws is what being an American is to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by teatime View Post
"You may think you're being the epitome of PC by excusing illegal actions and the presence of millions of illegal immigrants but, actually, you are attempting to make fools of those who follow the rules and respect laws. Maybe you would run if things got tough but some of us were raised differently than that.
I don't think emigrating to another country whether legal or illegal is the easy way out at all. Quite the opposite, it entails going to a foreign land where you may not know anyone, where you probably don't speak the language and have to get used to a whole new culture. It is a life of sacrifice and usually the immigrant is not the one who benefits, but the offspring. Again I don't consider anyone's ancestors as cowards for making the difficult decison of leaving their homeland, whether it was England for freedom of religion, or Eastern Europe for fear of death, or any of the other places that people have come from including Italy, China, Germany, and yes even Mexico which is quite beautiful and not merely the "stink-hole" some would have us believe.
 
Old 01-03-2008, 06:48 AM
 
902 posts, read 506,117 times
Reputation: 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by bklynchapin View Post
You are forgetting that all of our ancestors did run en masse from other places and did not stay in their countries to change things, unless you are Native American of course. Look, this is a great country with a lot of opportunity for a lot of people. That's why people come. If you and your family were stuck in what you deemed a miserable situation, would you not do everything in your power to change that? I know that I would, even if that meant breaking the law.

I have noticed that a lot of people have focused on the fact that undocumented immigrants have broken the law when coming into the country. To many that makes it an open and shut case. But those laws that are being broken are very different depending on where you are coming from. I believe they are extremely unfair. They give priority to immigrants from Western Europe over Eastern Europe, and to Europe in general over the Americas which are our neighbors. Let's take the case of Cuba and Haiti for example. Cubans are accepted into the country much more easilly while Haitians are turned away because of Cold War era politics. When the Germans and Irish first started coming into the country in large numbers, there were no national immigration laws. Each state could control immigration if they wanted to and most did not. So the fact that many people's ancestors came into the country "the right way" had more to do with what was happening at that historical moment than with a conscious decision. What would have all those Irish escaping the potato famine or the Eastern European Jews escaping the programs have done instead, if the laws were different at the time?

I think we also forget that many believed the Irish and Italians and Eastern Europeans (because they are Catholic and Jewish and of foreign cultures) could never be assimilated into the American way of life. Anti-immigrant articles in newspapers in the early 1900s read very much like the ones we have today. And yes, Latinos are assimilating. In the second generation they are mostly English dominant. In the third they have mostly forgotten Spanish (which isn't necessarilly a good thing in our increasingly globalized world). My point is that if you just focus on the recent immigrants it is easy to feel that they will never adapt. It usually takes a generation. You would have felt the same way living in New York's Lower East Side or many of the other Northeastern and Midwestern cities at the turn of the 20th century.
Same old tired argument that has nothing to do with the predent day at all. Get some new stories and find something to actually debate with.
 
Old 01-03-2008, 11:19 AM
 
138 posts, read 471,994 times
Reputation: 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozark-Baby View Post
Same old tired argument that has nothing to do with the predent day at all. Get some new stories and find something to actually debate with.
Wow, I wrote a lot there, and this is all I get in return? Yes, why try to bring history into the debate. Let's just put blinders on and stick to irrational gut level emotion. And by the way, you're racist argument is nothing new either.

-The dufus
 
Old 01-03-2008, 11:35 AM
 
9,742 posts, read 9,062,712 times
Reputation: 2049
Quote:
Originally Posted by greatbasinguide View Post
This post reinforces my contention that much of the anti illegal movement is racially based. I have a hunch that if 12 million young French women poured over the border illegally we would not her so much squacking.
I have a hunch that if 12 million white Europeans with MBAs crossed illegally, you'd be screaming bloody murder.
 
Old 01-03-2008, 11:51 AM
 
9,742 posts, read 9,062,712 times
Reputation: 2049
Quote:
Originally Posted by bklynchapin View Post
I have noticed that a lot of people have focused on the fact that undocumented immigrants have broken the law when coming into the country. To many that makes it an open and shut case. But those laws that are being broken are very different depending on where you are coming from. I believe they are extremely unfair. They give priority to immigrants from Western Europe over Eastern Europe, and to Europe in general over the Americas which are our neighbors.
Wrong, wrong, oh so wrong.

Immigration to the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The largest number of legal immigrants come from Mexico; 175,900 per year, average, 2000-2007.

Only one Western European country is represented in the top ten; Ireland. Of the remaining eight, four are in the Americas, four in Asia (including the Philippines).
 
Old 01-03-2008, 12:02 PM
 
Location: Helena, Montana
2,010 posts, read 2,042,912 times
Reputation: 780
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvxplorer View Post
I have a hunch that if 12 million white Europeans with MBAs crossed illegally, you'd be screaming bloody murder.
I think you hit the nail on the head with this one.
 
Old 01-03-2008, 12:05 PM
 
4,828 posts, read 6,792,255 times
Reputation: 620
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozark-Baby View Post
Hey dufus, it is because of illegals and the close proximaty to Mexico. Whe I visit my family in the Las Cruces area and El Paso and an accident happens, the police swarm the accident because of the fact that so many of the Mexican drivers run back over the border. So, please don't act like you know what you are posting about because you do not. Even the police in these areas are fed up with Mexico and the illegals.
No need to call him a dufus.
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