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Because, unlike international students, they do have been paying the taxes that support public schools. To believe that federal income tax is the only tax that U.S. citizens have to pay is an erroneous idea.
As you say they are paying taxes none the less and I don't think you need a valid SSN to pay sales taxes, or property (House and Car) taxes.
And Prison?.. Why are you so eager to pay to maintain someone who can maintain himself if given the opportunity?
-Kellem
In many cases the illegals work under the table BUT if they are working at jobs that require an SSN for tax witholding, they are using STOLEN or made up SSN's in many cases.. Although you may not need a "Valid" SSN to pay taxes, they are committing FRAUD and THEFT by using a false SSN.
Identity Theft is a CRIME!!! If an American citizen or a Legal Immigrant were to commit such crimes, they would wind up in Federal Prison. Obviously the illegals CANNOT "maintain themselves" if they are breaking into my country and stealing identities. Maybe they should try marching and demanding these rights in their home countries instead of invading another country demanding rights for which they are not entitled.. OR maybe they could put some of this energy into going through the LEGAL means to become citizens, such as studying for the citizenship test, etc..
In many cases the illegals work under the table BUT if they are working at jobs that require an SSN for tax witholding, they are using STOLEN or made up SSN's in many cases.. Although you may not need a "Valid" SSN to pay taxes, they are committing FRAUD and THEFT by using a false SSN.
Identity Theft is a CRIME!!! If an American citizen or a Legal Immigrant were to commit such crimes, they would wind up in Federal Prison. Obviously the illegals CANNOT "maintain themselves" if they are breaking into my country and stealing identities. Maybe they should try marching and demanding these rights in their home countries instead of invading another country demanding rights for which they are not entitled.. OR maybe they could put some of this energy into going through the LEGAL means to become citizens, such as studying for the citizenship test, etc..
Now according to the U.S. Supreme Court, the use of SSN's is not considered ID theft unless is proven that the person knew that the SSN belong to someone else so made up numbers or if the person believed it was a made up number, are not considered ID theft. It wasn't even a divided decision, it was unanimous that ID theft is not to be used to advance immigration cases:
" The Supreme Court on Monday rejected a favorite tool of prosecutors in immigration cases, ruling unanimously that a federal identity-theft law may not be used against many illegal workers who used false Social Security numbers to get jobs. "
And I agree on your position that they should "put some energy into going through the LEGAL means to become citizens, such as stufying for the citizenship test, etc.." But, by the point you are even allowed to take the citizenship test you have to have been a resident for 5 years (3 if you are military or are married to a U.S. citizen) But, there is no legal path to go from illegal to legal, bar marrying a U.S. citizen or having a family member became citizen or resident.
So I would like you to explain a little more about what do you mean by "putting some efford into the LEGAL means", because as things stand now, not even if an employer is willing to sponsor you, you are able to apply for residency, once you became illegal you are out of options. The only thing that I could think from your statement is that you are recommending people to seduce U.S. citizens into marrying them... and I highly doubt that is what you mean.
-Kellem
Last edited by Kellem; 05-06-2009 at 10:02 AM..
Reason: Added references
I do not know kellem, maybe he meant for them to go back to their home countries and apply for citizenship like everyone else. They are illegal, yes I have seen your thread, that means they should not be here. If I came and camped in your yard, I am not hurting anything I am just living there, is that illegal? Even though I am working and buying things so I pay taxes, at least by your thinking. I have broken no laws, I mean I just needed a place to stay. Oh yeah and I will use your garden hose to wash with. Mind if I go ahead and set up a tent or shed for some shelter? I bet you will. I mean, why should I foot the bill if you are already paying for it. Mind if I run an extension cord so I can have some tv?
See this is what we are talking about. Most do not come here to work hard, they come here for the handouts. If I was to use the above scenario as a case of law, I would be arrested for illegal trespassing and squatting. They are doing the same, regardless of how you try to bend the law, or the wording of the law.
Because, unlike international students, they do have been paying the taxes that support public schools. To believe that federal income tax is the only tax that U.S. citizens have to pay is an erroneous idea.
A foreign student may have travelled to the US, at which time they also paid taxes. They paid tax on a hotel room, they paid a tax each time they ate at a restaurant, they paid sales tax on any purchases they made, taxicab and subway rides are also taxed, if they rented a car they paid a tax, if they went to a museum, theater or movie they paid a tax, etc. This does not entitle them to reduced tuition and it should not entitle illegals to reduced tuition either.
I do not know kellem, maybe he meant for them to go back to their home countries and apply for citizenship like everyone else. They are illegal, yes I have seen your thread, that means they should not be here. If I came and camped in your yard, I am not hurting anything I am just living there, is that illegal? Even though I am working and buying things so I pay taxes, at least by your thinking. I have broken no laws, I mean I just needed a place to stay. Oh yeah and I will use your garden hose to wash with. Mind if I go ahead and set up a tent or shed for some shelter? I bet you will. I mean, why should I foot the bill if you are already paying for it. Mind if I run an extension cord so I can have some tv?
See this is what we are talking about. Most do not come here to work hard, they come here for the handouts. If I was to use the above scenario as a case of law, I would be arrested for illegal trespassing and squatting. They are doing the same, regardless of how you try to bend the law, or the wording of the law.
Ciaerin,
If your claim about most illegal aliens coming here for the hand-outs is correct, then I agree with you. I actually go further to say that no matter if the person is U.S. citizen or not there should be no hand outs, to use your example I would not tolerate anyone hooking up their extension cord to my outlet to watch tv no matter where they are from. But, from my experience I do not think that is correct, and I would really like ( talking seriously) data supporting that claim.
I like to see it like the guy on the side of the road around the highway access roads... if the guy has a sign saying "I lost my job, help me".."I'm hungry"..."I have 10 kids"... "I want to get drunk, and I'm broke"...he could expect no sympathy from me, and even less some money. now if the same guy, is selling newspapers, or bottled water, or any other way where he is trying to work then I'm really likely to go out of my way to help them out.
Now, this thread is about a college bill, I worked from 9pm to 6am and then went to school from 8am - 2pm during my undergrad, and slept here and there and on the weekends. I paid for my schooling of my own money as I was able to afford in-state tuition, as a matter of fact I had to skip one year of school because i didn't qualify for it just yet. Out-of-state tuition is virtually inaccessible to someone trying to self-support or has small support from their family. So i know for a fact, that if you want to go school you can as long as you want it bad enough. This college bill will benefit those that want to better themselves and find better jobs. These guys don't want to go for 4+ years of school to make it back at the welfare line.
Now according to the U.S. Supreme Court, the use of SSN's is not considered ID theft unless is proven that the person knew that the SSN belong to someone else so made up numbers or if the person believed it was a made up number, are not considered ID theft. It wasn't even a divided decision, it was unanimous that ID theft is not to be used to advance immigration cases:
" The Supreme Court on Monday rejected a favorite tool of prosecutors in immigration cases, ruling unanimously that a federal identity-theft law may not be used against many illegal workers who used false Social Security numbers to get jobs. "
And I agree on your position that they should "put some energy into going through the LEGAL means to become citizens, such as stufying for the citizenship test, etc.." But, by the point you are even allowed to take the citizenship test you have to have been a resident for 5 years (3 if you are military or are married to a U.S. citizen) But, there is no legal path to go from illegal to legal, bar marrying a U.S. citizen or having a family member became citizen or resident.
So I would like you to explain a little more about what do you mean by "putting some efford into the LEGAL means", because as things stand now, not even if an employer is willing to sponsor you, you are able to apply for residency, once you became illegal you are out of options. The only thing that I could think from your statement is that you are recommending people to seduce U.S. citizens into marrying them... and I highly doubt that is what you mean.
-Kellem
Yes, It is unfortunate that the U.S. Supreme Court chose to defend an Illegal Alien's right to commit Identity Theft whereas if a Legal U.S. Citizen or legal immigrant were involved in the SAME type of fraud, they would likely go to Prison.
What I would recommend for these illegals to do is to STOP sneaking into my country and demanding instant citizenship and instead apply for a citizenship like OTHER Immigrants from OTHER countries do..
Yes, I am aware that there is no pathway to go from Illegal to Legal.. Maybe if the person had NOT broken the law to begin with, then they wouldn't be experiencing the problem with attaining citizenship? Maybe they should educate their family members and friends back home to NOT sneak into the country illegally so that they can have the opportunity to become U.S. Citizens.. That argument is like saying that a Drug Dealer should become a licenced Pharmacist because they were a drug dealer, or there should be a way for a Child Molestor to become a Kindergarten Teacher..
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