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Old 12-31-2007, 12:30 PM
 
Location: Oklahoma(formerly SoCalif) Originally Mich,
13,387 posts, read 19,374,823 times
Reputation: 4611

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So many letter writers have based their arguments on how this land is made up of immigrants. Ernie Lujan for one, suggests we should tear down the Statue of Liberty because the people now in question aren't being treated the same as those who passed through Ellis Island and other ports of entry.

Maybe we should turn to our history books and point out to people like Mr. Lujan why today's American is not willing to accept this new kind of immigrant any longer. Back in 1900 when there was a rush from all areas of Europe to come to the United States, people had to get off a ship and stand in a long line in New York and be documented. Some would even get down on their hands and knees and kiss the ground. They made a pledge to uphold the laws and support their new country in good and bad times. They made learning English a primary rule in their new American households and some even changed the ir names to blend in with their new home.

They had waved good bye to their birth place to give their children a new life and did everything in their power to help their children assimilate into one culture.

Nothing was handed to them. No free lunches, n o welfare, no labor laws to protect them. All they had were the skills and craftsmanship they had brought with them to trade for a future of prosperity. Most of their children came of age when World War II broke out. My father fought along side men whose parents had come straight over from Germany , Italy , France and Japan None of these 1st generation Americans ever gave any thought about what country their parents had come from. They were Americans fighting Hitler, Mussolini and the Emperor of Japan They were defending the United States of America as one people. When we liberated France , no one in those villages were looking for the French-American or the German American or the Irish American. The people of France saw only Americans. And we carried one flag that represented one country. Not one of those immigrant sons would have thought about picking up another country's flag and waving it to represent who they were. It would have been a disgrace to their parents who had sacrificed so much to be here. These immigrants truly knew what it meant to be an American. They stirred the melting pot into one red, white and blue bowl.

And here we are in 2006 with a new kind of immigrant who wants the same rights and privileges. Only they want to achieve it by playing with a different set of rules, one that includes the entitlement card and a guarantee of being faithful to their mother country. I'm sorry, that's not what being an American is all about. I believe that the immigrants who landed on Ellis Island in the early 1900's deserve better than that for all the toil, hard work and sacrifice in raising future generations to create a land that has become a beacon for those legally searching for a better life. I think they would be appalled that they are being used as an example by those waving foreign country flags.

And for that suggestion about taking down the Statue of Liberty, it happens to mean a lot to the citizens who are voting on the immigration bill. I wouldn't start talking about dismantling the United States just yet.
http://www.oilstick.com/blog/922.htm (broken link)
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Old 12-31-2007, 12:41 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,144 posts, read 42,034,361 times
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That Ernie Lujan individual is truly pathetic.

If, say Mexico is so much better than the USA----------why in the hell are so many people from there and points further south trying to illegally immigrate here, rhetorically speaking?

The country that should worry about being dismantled is Mexico. One big civil war there could do it very quickly-----------or, at best, a velvet revolution a la Czechoslovakia splitting apart some years back.
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Old 12-31-2007, 03:11 PM
 
Location: CA
31 posts, read 64,239 times
Reputation: 25
By "True Immigrants" do you mean those who came on boats, landed on a piece of earth and illegally claimed it as their own by pillaging, murdering, and destroying the Native Americans who had already claimed this country?
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Old 12-31-2007, 03:22 PM
 
67 posts, read 50,046 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alely View Post
By "True Immigrants" do you mean those who came on boats, landed on a piece of earth and illegally claimed it as their own by pillaging, murdering, and destroying the Native Americans who had already claimed this country?
Excuse me, but the tone of your missive is slightly skewed.

Native Americans, and I assume you mean Indians, did not own America. They had no claim to any land they "claimed".

The Indian tribes the first Europeans contacted did absolutely nothing with the land. They did not build anything and hadn't even invented the wheel.

They were nomads who, when they had finished polluting wherever they happend to be simmply upped and moved sticks to another location. Some of the Indian tribes were cannibalistic. They were barbarians and were decimated because they could not adapt to the superior Western cultures that did in fact develop the land.

As for "pillaging and murdering", the Indians were the most brutal killers ever.

Try not to rely on fiction like "Dances with Wolves" for your history.
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Old 12-31-2007, 03:31 PM
 
17,290 posts, read 29,323,382 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alely View Post
By "True Immigrants" do you mean those who came on boats, landed on a piece of earth and illegally claimed it as their own by pillaging, murdering, and destroying the Native Americans who had already claimed this country?

For something to be illegal, there has to be a law against it. Unless you're trying to retroactively apply 21st century norms and morality to history.... a frustrating and futile exercise, to be sure, then there was no "illegal act" perpetrated by the first settlers (subsequent breaking of treaties, etc., yes).

As brutal as it sounds, the history of the world, and indeed, the norm at the time the Europeans came marching into the new world, involves the acquisition of land by conquest (and pillaging too!). Europeans were also not quite as efficient murderers as we are led to believe, either. Old World diseases (which, I'm afraid to say, were INEVITABLY going to make it over here sometime or another), are responsible for 95% of all native deaths.
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Old 12-31-2007, 03:31 PM
 
Location: CA
31 posts, read 64,239 times
Reputation: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zanman View Post
Excuse me, but the tone of your missive is slightly skewed.

Native Americans, and I assume you mean Indians, did not own America. They had no claim to any land they "claimed".

The Indian tribes the first Europeans contacted did absolutely nothing with the land. They did not build anything and hadn't even invented the wheel.

They were nomads who, when they had finished polluting wherever they happend to be simmply upped and moved sticks to another location. Some of the Indian tribes were cannibalistic. They were barbarians and were decimated because they could not adapt to the superior Western cultures that did in fact develop the land.

As for "pillaging and murdering", the Indians were the most brutal killers ever.

Try not to rely on fiction like "Dances with Wolves" for your history.
OMG!! Dance with wolves! That's my favorite movie! I love me that Daniel Day-Lewis!

All kidding aside, Just because they did not "claim the land" did not mean it wasn't theirs. They had/have a different culture and a different way of doing things, the western way is not always the "right way"
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Old 12-31-2007, 03:34 PM
 
17,290 posts, read 29,323,382 times
Reputation: 8691
Quote:
Originally Posted by alely View Post
OMG!! Dance with wolves! That's my favorite movie! I love me that Daniel Day-Lewis!

All kidding aside, Just because they did not "claim the land" did not mean it wasn't theirs. They had/have a different culture and a different way of doing things, the western way is not always the "right way"
But the Europeans weren't engaging in the "Western Way".... they were engaging in the "Rest of the World" way. The "Englightenment" didn't happen till a couple of centuries AFTER the first Europeans settled in America.

If the Mongols could have made it across a land bridge to the New World, doubtless they too would have raped, pillaged, murdered, and conquered Native Americans centuries prior.


Besides, not all Native cultures were the same. Some were expansionist and war like, others more docile and peaceful the way popular culture like to portray ALL natives.
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Old 12-31-2007, 03:43 PM
 
Location: CA
31 posts, read 64,239 times
Reputation: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by TriMT7 View Post
But the Europeans weren't engaging in the "Western Way".... they were engaging in the "Rest of the World" way. The "Englightenment" didn't happen till a couple of centuries AFTER the first Europeans settled in America.

If the Mongols could have made it across a land bridge to the New World, doubtless they too would have raped, pillaged, murdered, and conquered Native Americans centuries prior.


Besides, not all Native cultures were the same. Some were expansionist and war like, others more docile and peaceful the way popular culture like to portray ALL natives.
But at least they did it on their land.
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Old 12-31-2007, 03:54 PM
 
17,290 posts, read 29,323,382 times
Reputation: 8691
Quote:
Originally Posted by alely View Post
But at least they did it on their land.
Are you being culturally insensitive? Lumping ALL American Indians together as a monolithic group?

Aztecs are not the same as Sioux, are not the same as Lakota, are not the same as Aleuts.... what does it mean that they did it on "their land"?

Did American Indians evolve from distinct apes than the rest of humanity? Spring up from the ground in North Dakota? Or were they, too, migrants?
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Old 12-31-2007, 04:13 PM
 
Location: CA
31 posts, read 64,239 times
Reputation: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by TriMT7 View Post
Are you being culturally insensitive? Lumping ALL American Indians together as a monolithic group?

Aztecs are not the same as Sioux, are not the same as Lakota, are not the same as Aleuts.... what does it mean that they did it on "their land"?

Did American Indians evolve from distinct apes than the rest of humanity? Spring up from the ground in North Dakota? Or were they, too, migrants?
Nope, they were different but they did it on what was their piece of earth.
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