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Old 01-23-2008, 01:19 PM
 
9,742 posts, read 9,058,667 times
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Reagan was a popular president (though I myself couldn't stand him). Whether you liked Reagan or not, he was the father of supply-side economics, of which illegal immigration is at least a by-product. Seeing how the border is a federal issue, that millions of illegals were given amnesty under Reagan, and the promise to subsequently seal the border was broken, I tend to believe that illegal immigration was planned, not simply an effect of supply-side economics. Regardless, illegal immigration is directly tied to supply-side philosophy.

In short, Reaganomics emphasizes the supply side of the supply and demand equation. The theory claims that increasing supply will increase demand. I'm no economist, but this flies in the face of everything (granted, little) that I learned in ECON classes.

In a market such as ours in the US, it is the consumer who drives the economy. Producers react to consumer choices. Contrary to pro-illegal claims, price is determined mostly by consumer demand, not costs of production. There are, of course, exceptions, and it's more complicated than I make it, but suffice it to say that if the (proverbial) head of lettuce rises to $10 a head, we will simply do without lettuce.

There are some merits to supply-side theory, but in today's global climate, the benefits transcend borders, and effectively impose the will of producers on the people of (supposedly, self-governed) sovereign nations. On a level playing field, the theory makes (some) sense. That is, under one set of economic policies that guide one nation, competing workers are more-or-less subjected to the same economic pressures and stimuli. With outsourcing and illegal immigration, however, the average American worker finds himself competing with those in an entirely differently directed economy (communist China) and workers from economies where the cost of living is a fraction of that in the US (Mexico).

All this economic mumbo-jumbo aside - there is a wealth of information on the net - the average American worker is not interested in theory. He is interested in feeding his family (take note, pro-illegals). Many illegals I know have become quite wealthy in their home countries. I don't blame them. If I could purchase a new home for $40K, I'd buy a few myself. But it is an accident of birth (take note again, pro-illegals) that we American workers are forced to compete on an unlevel playing field. If globalism and (any type) of immigration is allowed to continue, no job will be safe. Computer programmers from India work for quite a bit less than their American counterparts. Don't kid yourself into thinking your career is outsourcing-proof or guest worker -proof

Ironically, supply-side policies can backfire. When American workers become displaced, the government will be called to assist. Since wealth and growth has been shifted to producers (Indeed, virtually all growth in the US economy has been in the form of profit), the increase in tax revenue needed to support the dwindling middle class will come from producers themselves. In a worst case scenario (granted, if conditions deteriorate to such a level), we may see a worker revolt, resulting in two things Reagan despised: Union activity and socialism.

(This is just food for thought. I don't pretend to be an expert. Rebuttals welcome and encouraged.)
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Old 01-24-2008, 10:50 AM
 
1,861 posts, read 2,967,216 times
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I think you're totally correct that this was planned, and the government wants to keep it going, unlike the People.

If jobs keep getting outsourced, given to illegals, and wages of citizens are depressed further, EVENTUALLY, there will be an uprising.

According to Marx (I studied this a LONG time ago!), capitalism must expand or die. Well, it keeps expanding, and as it does, the theory is that the workers will finally unite against this situation, and capitalism WILL die. It never happened here in the PAST because everyone thought they could achieve the American Dream - but, now, lots of people cannot, even if they have good jobs. Wages have been depressed for decades, and with everything going on including globalism with low-wage competition, it just gets worse as costs of housing, utilities, etc. go up.
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Old 01-24-2008, 11:06 AM
 
9,742 posts, read 9,058,667 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cousinsal View Post
I think you're totally correct that this was planned, and the government wants to keep it going, unlike the People.

If jobs keep getting outsourced, given to illegals, and wages of citizens are depressed further, EVENTUALLY, there will be an uprising.

According to Marx (I studied this a LONG time ago!), capitalism must expand or die. Well, it keeps expanding, and as it does, the theory is that the workers will finally unite against this situation, and capitalism WILL die. It never happened here in the PAST because everyone thought they could achieve the American Dream - but, now, lots of people cannot, even if they have good jobs. Wages have been depressed for decades, and with everything going on including globalism with low-wage competition, it just gets worse as costs of housing, utilities, etc. go up.
Yes, I agree completely.

The fallacy of communism is that people are not provided incentive. I think we're seeing (or could see) a similar phenomenon here, today. There's even a category of unemployed (I forget what it's called) for people who aren't working, but have become so discouraged that they have stopped looking for work.

A personal anecdote: The company I work for (second largest consumer goods label producer) was recently sold. The new company, which we all agree is the worst of the several that have owned us, is not shy about letting us know that it is profit driven. We've also been informed that, in the pursuit of profit, no cost of living raise will be allocated this year. Guess what this has done for morale? The current attitude on the floor is, "Why should I work hard? It will only benefit the profit margin, not my paycheck."
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Old 01-24-2008, 01:18 PM
 
1,861 posts, read 2,967,216 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nvxplorer View Post
Yes, I agree completely.

The fallacy of communism is that people are not provided incentive. I think we're seeing (or could see) a similar phenomenon here, today. There's even a category of unemployed (I forget what it's called) for people who aren't working, but have become so discouraged that they have stopped looking for work.

A personal anecdote: The company I work for (second largest consumer goods label producer) was recently sold. The new company, which we all agree is the worst of the several that have owned us, is not shy about letting us know that it is profit driven. We've also been informed that, in the pursuit of profit, no cost of living raise will be allocated this year. Guess what this has done for morale? The current attitude on the floor is, "Why should I work hard? It will only benefit the profit margin, not my paycheck."
Geez - I work for a nonprofit, and even I get a raise! I would not be able to work in a profit-making company (I have tried) - I can't stand that "culture". I always work at hospitals, universities, small nonprofits, etc.

I don't make a great wage, but it's a good wage, and I DO get raises and even bonuses sometimes!
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Old 09-14-2014, 11:35 PM
 
Location: Someplace Wonderful
5,170 posts, read 3,725,564 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nvxplorer View Post
Reagan was a popular president (though I myself couldn't stand him). Whether you liked Reagan or not, he was the father of supply-side economics, of which illegal immigration is at least a by-product. Seeing how the border is a federal issue, that millions of illegals were given amnesty under Reagan, and the promise to subsequently seal the border was broken, I tend to believe that illegal immigration was planned, not simply an effect of supply-side economics. Regardless, illegal immigration is directly tied to supply-side philosophy.
I disagree. Reaganomics was centered around two questions ... What would reduction of tax rates do to federal tax revenues, and what would reductions of tax rates do to the economy? There was no linkage to amnesty.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nvxplorer View Post
In short, Reaganomics emphasizes the supply side of the supply and demand equation. The theory claims that increasing supply will increase demand. I'm no economist, but this flies in the face of everything (granted, little) that I learned in ECON classes.
Well, maybe. I was there and I recall the discussions as reported in the media. All discussions centered around the effect of lower tax rates on the economy and on federal tax revenues.

If you truly studied Econ, perhaps you recall the supply-demand curve, which is a schedule of what sellers are willing and able to sell at a given price, and which consumers are willing and able to pay at a given price. The laws of supply and demand are irrefutable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nvxplorer View Post
In a market such as ours in the US, it is the consumer who drives the economy. Producers react to consumer choices. Contrary to pro-illegal claims, price is determined mostly by consumer demand, not costs of production. There are, of course, exceptions, and it's more complicated than I make it, but suffice it to say that if the (proverbial) head of lettuce rises to $10 a head, we will simply do without lettuce.
I have had arguments with right wing free market people who are adamant that consumers have no input and that everything is driven by the producers.

Your lettuce example is interesting. If market price of lettuce rises to a point where very few people buy, then in a rational world, the producers would develop a machine that picked lettuce at a far lower cost than manual labor, just as what happened to wheat and corn and oats and cotton.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nvxplorer View Post
There are some merits to supply-side theory, but in today's global climate, the benefits transcend borders, and effectively impose the will of producers on the people of (supposedly, self-governed) sovereign nations. On a level playing field, the theory makes (some) sense. That is, under one set of economic policies that guide one nation, competing workers are more-or-less subjected to the same economic pressures and stimuli. With outsourcing and illegal immigration, however, the average American worker finds himself competing with those in an entirely differently directed economy (communist China) and workers from economies where the cost of living is a fraction of that in the US (Mexico).
Well, we can argue from here to eternity about the so called level playing field. The right wing ideologues tend to deny the inequalities. I, for one, recognize that there are inequalities.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nvxplorer View Post
All this economic mumbo-jumbo aside - there is a wealth of information on the net - the average American worker is not interested in theory. He is interested in feeding his family (take note, pro-illegals). Many illegals I know have become quite wealthy in their home countries. I don't blame them. If I could purchase a new home for $40K, I'd buy a few myself. But it is an accident of birth (take note again, pro-illegals) that we American workers are forced to compete on an unlevel playing field. If globalism and (any type) of immigration is allowed to continue, no job will be safe. Computer programmers from India work for quite a bit less than their American counterparts. Don't kid yourself into thinking your career is outsourcing-proof or guest worker -proof
Amen, my brother

Quote:
Originally Posted by nvxplorer View Post
Ironically, supply-side policies can backfire. When American workers become displaced, the government will be called to assist. Since wealth and growth has been shifted to producers (Indeed, virtually all growth in the US economy has been in the form of profit), the increase in tax revenue needed to support the dwindling middle class will come from producers themselves. In a worst case scenario (granted, if conditions deteriorate to such a level), we may see a worker revolt, resulting in two things Reagan despised: Union activity and socialism.

(This is just food for thought. I don't pretend to be an expert. Rebuttals welcome and encouraged.)
Your concluding paragraph is quite interesting. In my observation, this is true. I do disagree that what is going on will lead to increased unionization. IMHO unions have lost all credibility.
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Old 09-19-2014, 08:55 PM
 
1,807 posts, read 1,403,371 times
Reputation: 988
Quote:
Reagan was a popular president (though I myself couldn't stand him). Whether you liked Reagan or not, he was the father of supply-side economics, of which illegal immigration is at least a by-product.
Immigration policy and supply side economics are not the same thing. That's like comparing an orange to your television.
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Old 09-19-2014, 11:27 PM
 
Location: Oceania
8,623 posts, read 5,891,490 times
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Over population is the true stumbling block.
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Old 09-20-2014, 12:42 AM
 
150 posts, read 140,200 times
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Well, Reagan, his followers, and conservative Republicans in general, are huge supporters of immigration, to keep labor costs down.
It always tickled my fancy to watch these white people support them over and over, thinking, any day now they will control the borders, and America will be ours again. These suckers believed it for going on 34 years now, and they still believe it.

But this is all academic. Surely you all can see that America is headed for economic and political dissolution.
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Old 09-20-2014, 05:56 AM
 
31,458 posts, read 14,559,147 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by randomman View Post
Well, Reagan, his followers, and conservative Republicans in general, are huge supporters of immigration, to keep labor costs down.
It always tickled my fancy to watch these white people support them over and over, thinking, any day now they will control the borders, and America will be ours again. These suckers believed it for going on 34 years now, and they still believe it.

But this is all academic. Surely you all can see that America is headed for economic and political dissolution.
It's not just Republican business people who hire illegal aliens. The Democrat ones are just as guilty. Why bring race into this discussion? Are you implying that only white people hire illegal aliens? Most regular conservative Americans of any race want illegal aliens deported and yes that would help get our country back to the rule of law.
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Old 09-20-2014, 09:02 AM
 
20,611 posts, read 12,278,864 times
Reputation: 5895
Quote:
Originally Posted by randomman View Post
Well, Reagan, his followers, and conservative Republicans in general, are huge supporters of immigration, to keep labor costs down.
It always tickled my fancy to watch these white people support them over and over, thinking, any day now they will control the borders, and America will be ours again. These suckers believed it for going on 34 years now, and they still believe it.

But this is all academic. Surely you all can see that America is headed for economic and political dissolution.
Uh; it ain't just people with "white" skin hiring illegal aliens; lots of "brown" skin people do it too. Sheesh!
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