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Old 01-26-2008, 12:30 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,646,709 times
Reputation: 3785

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Quote:
Originally Posted by golfgod View Post
To Arizona Bear and Arizona Bound; your idea of;



Is the one truly WORKABLE but completely unfeasible idea. Please re-read my original post. People that HIRE other people have MONEY, people with MONEY give that MONEY to POLITICIANS. People who give money to politicians have pull with those pols. Hence, the politicians are NOT going to have their money folks put in jail.

This is the (second) most basic rule of politics. The first rule is to get re-elected, which takes money, which leads to why this (despite being the only workable idea) is unfeasible.

To the poster who said the problem with our military in Iraq being that they're not allowed to shoot to kill anyone and everyone (I'm paraphrasing, but you know what you wrote), I would suggest you read up a little bit on COUNTER-INSURGENCY WARFARE. The US Army field manual on such would be a great place to start.

Unfortunately our military didn't study counter-insurgency until they had been involved in one for about 3 years. A basic rule of counter-insurgency is that THE PEOPLE ARE THE PRIZE, not the target.

And BTW, yes, lots of innocent civilians were killed by American and Allied Forces during WWII, seldom was that intentional. Our military has always had a firm policy against indiscriminate killing of civilians.

People who spout the kind of "kill em all and let god sort it out" nonsense sound like the kind of drugstore cowboys that Bush and Cheney are. I hope you're not a combat veteran, you sure don't sound like one.

golfgod
I live here in Arizona and I am already seeing the effects of the Employer Sanctions Law despite it not being enforced at the moment.

The illegal immigrants are fleeing in droves because it is too dangerous to stick around anymore. Note too with the construction industry imploding courtesy of the housing crash; most builders will can a suspected illegal before a US citizen/green card holder-------the latter do have rights. Illegals have as many rights as any other criminal.
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Old 01-26-2008, 12:38 PM
 
9,742 posts, read 9,067,258 times
Reputation: 2049
Quote:
Originally Posted by golfgod View Post
Is the one truly WORKABLE but completely unfeasible idea. Please re-read my original post. People that HIRE other people have MONEY, people with MONEY give that MONEY to POLITICIANS. People who give money to politicians have pull with those pols. Hence, the politicians are NOT going to have their money folks put in jail.

This is the (second) most basic rule of politics. The first rule is to get re-elected, which takes money, which leads to why this (despite being the only workable idea) is unfeasible.
You seem to contradict yourself. Yes, money is secondary to votes.

Look up "Elliot Spitzer, driver's licenses, illegal aliens" to see the power public opinion has over money. Look to all the state and local legislation that has been enacted due to public pressure.

Money is crucial, but when 80% of the populous is in agreement, money spent in opposition to our opinion is money wasted.
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Old 01-26-2008, 04:05 PM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,761,562 times
Reputation: 22167
Quote:
Originally Posted by golfgod View Post
To Arizona Bear and Arizona Bound; your idea of;



Is the one truly WORKABLE but completely unfeasible idea. Please re-read my original post. People that HIRE other people have MONEY, people with MONEY give that MONEY to POLITICIANS. People who give money to politicians have pull with those pols. Hence, the politicians are NOT going to have their money folks put in jail.

This is the (second) most basic rule of politics. The first rule is to get re-elected, which takes money, which leads to why this (despite being the only workable idea) is unfeasible.

To the poster who said the problem with our military in Iraq being that they're not allowed to shoot to kill anyone and everyone (I'm paraphrasing, but you know what you wrote), I would suggest you read up a little bit on COUNTER-INSURGENCY WARFARE. The US Army field manual on such would be a great place to start.

Unfortunately our military didn't study counter-insurgency until they had been involved in one for about 3 years. A basic rule of counter-insurgency is that THE PEOPLE ARE THE PRIZE, not the target.

And BTW, yes, lots of innocent civilians were killed by American and Allied Forces during WWII, seldom was that intentional. Our military has always had a firm policy against indiscriminate killing of civilians.

People who spout the kind of "kill em all and let god sort it out" nonsense sound like the kind of drugstore cowboys that Bush and Cheney are. I hope you're not a combat veteran, you sure don't sound like one.

golfgod
How many drunk drivers are out there? Or wife beaters? Or embezzlers? Tax cheats? And so on.

Why are other laws still supposed to be enforced even if we can't solve the entire problem? No matter how many drunk drivers are arrested, there's still going to be some drunk drivers out there. No matter how many rapists get arrested there will still be some that go undetected.

So -- because laws are not convenient to everyone and no law can completely end a problem should we just wipe out all laws?

Enforce the existing laws. Fine the employers of illegals. Deport illegals as they make themselves known.
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Old 01-26-2008, 04:47 PM
 
9,124 posts, read 32,123,471 times
Reputation: 3519
Quote:
Originally Posted by golfgod View Post

Is the one truly WORKABLE but completely unfeasible idea. Please re-read my original post. People that HIRE other people have MONEY, people with MONEY give that MONEY to POLITICIANS. People who give money to politicians have pull with those pols. Hence, the politicians are NOT going to have their money folks put in jail.
Nah- there's plenty of dirtbag business owners who hire illegals and don't contribute one cent to the politicians. Start at the "day laborer centers" and jail everyone who picks up a truckful. Then go on to the smaller companies that have a few working there, and progressively move up to the larger firms. I bet you'd find several million illegals before you had to go to an employer who's got any clout with a politician.
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Old 01-26-2008, 05:15 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,646,709 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobKovacs View Post
Nah- there's plenty of dirtbag business owners who hire illegals and don't contribute one cent to the politicians. Start at the "day laborer centers" and jail everyone who picks up a truckful. Then go on to the smaller companies that have a few working there, and progressively move up to the larger firms. I bet you'd find several million illegals before you had to go to an employer who's got any clout with a politician.
Damn skippy there, sir!

My father is an immigrant from Hungary and that man had to secure a sponsor, etc. before being let into the USA back in 1951.

So; needless to say, I take grave offence at a bunch of lawbreakers from SOB or any place else cutting to the front of the line
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Old 01-27-2008, 10:34 AM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,761,562 times
Reputation: 22167
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
Damn skippy there, sir!

My father is an immigrant from Hungary and that man had to secure a sponsor, etc. before being let into the USA back in 1951.

So; needless to say, I take grave offence at a bunch of lawbreakers from SOB or any place else cutting to the front of the line
That's where illegals hurt the chances of would-be legal immigrants.

Greedy employers don't feel much need to sponsor an immigrant when they can get by with bringing in truckloads of illegals.
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Old 01-27-2008, 11:31 AM
 
Location: California
3,432 posts, read 2,162,786 times
Reputation: 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
That's where illegals hurt the chances of would-be legal immigrants.

Greedy employers don't feel much need to sponsor an immigrant when they can get by with bringing in truckloads of illegals.
On the contrary, a man who owns a christmas tree orchard brings up a Mexican every year to help him out in the selling of the tree's. The man then goes back to Mexico after winter. So yes, Sponsorships still exist.
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Old 01-27-2008, 01:10 PM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,761,562 times
Reputation: 22167
Quote:
Originally Posted by ProLogic View Post
On the contrary, a man who owns a christmas tree orchard brings up a Mexican every year to help him out in the selling of the tree's. The man then goes back to Mexico after winter. So yes, Sponsorships still exist.
Yes they still exist -- but many employers don't bother with going through the paper work or financial responsibility to sponsor their immigrants. Why should they when they can get by with breaking the law and profitting by doing so?

Employer sponsorship is fine as long as the employer has to follow labor and wage laws and provide for their immigrant.

And why should law-breaking employers be allowed to bring in illegals to undercut the law-abiding employers?
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Old 01-27-2008, 06:05 PM
 
Location: California
3,432 posts, read 2,162,786 times
Reputation: 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
Yes they still exist -- but many employers don't bother with going through the paper work or financial responsibility to sponsor their immigrants. Why should they when they can get by with breaking the law and profitting by doing so?

Employer sponsorship is fine as long as the employer has to follow labor and wage laws and provide for their immigrant.

And why should law-breaking employers be allowed to bring in illegals to undercut the law-abiding employers?
Thats true thats true, good point.
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Old 01-27-2008, 10:05 PM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,761,562 times
Reputation: 22167
Quote:
Originally Posted by ProLogic View Post
Thats true thats true, good point.
I actually know illegals. I've seen conditions that no one should live in -- in this country and that's one reason I'm against this kind of thing. I've seen living quarters that were nothing more than a broken down shed filled with mice -- very cold and drafty in the winter. I've seen where they had illegals sleeping in a barn. And I saw a one room apartment where illegals were "renting" floor space -- sleeping on chairs and the floor. This was a fire trap type apartment.

There is a lot of abuse that goes on -- people working terrible hours and getting no overtime. Or sometimes not paid at all -- but they aren't under our wage and labor laws. One guy -- legal citizen -- would agree to plow a field and get $20 an hour -- people assuming they were following the law and he'd contract the work out to one of his illegals for less than $5 an hour. He would stay home all day -- and his illegals would be out doing his work for him.

And I see the abuse on the other side too -- women coming to give birth because they figure a life on welfare and food stamps here beats working for a living in Mexico.

I also know of remittance families where the kids might see their dad once every 3-4 years -- and that isn't good. Kids need their parents home raising them. That's one reason I think Mexico is exploding in violence -- these remittance kids are coming of age and there's still nothing there for them but they've grown up without parents. Some are lucky and have relatives that care something about them, some are less lucky.
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