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Old 01-25-2008, 05:12 PM
 
Location: Fort Worth/Dallas
11,878 posts, read 32,928,542 times
Reputation: 5539

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Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonCynic View Post
They just can't seem to find people to build our highways, streets, roads and sewers
Because those companies don't pay a livable wage. Americans have a necessity to keep up their standard of living, and it's not because of greed. It's because many have mortgages and other such staples of American life. Provide these people with a livable wage and stop pocketing the profits from slave labor and there would be plenty of Americans applying for these jobs.

They've don it in the past. How do you think this great country was built, through illegal immigration? No, it was not. Please don't try and confuse the issue with assumptions based upon bias; these will be dealt with harshly in the future on this forum, I promise they will.

People coming here to work from South of the border, which I might remind you is still illegal, have none of that baggage.

These companies are profiting off the backs of slave labor, and are willing to do so for PROFIT. They don't care about laws and are the most egregious violators with most of the responsibility for this mess.
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Old 01-25-2008, 05:19 PM
 
1,304 posts, read 2,921,982 times
Reputation: 393
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonCynic View Post
Not sure what invasion you refer to. The issue of immigration exists in Houston but I don't get the impression it is as much an issue as in other parts of the state. Houston has gone through incredible expansion both in housing and infrastructure. Guess what... even companies bidding for city and county contracts hire illegals. They just can't seem to find people to build our highways, streets, roads and sewers. Not to mention the other industries hiring illegals or those with questionable documentation. We have some of the lowest cost of living among large cities so I am not complaining.
It sure is funny how you DON'T know how many ARE illegal.. but for some reason.. you can tell us that all the road workers, and companies hired by the city are all illegals.. but in your last post, you stated that you have many from south of the border.. but DIDN'T know and couldn't say if they are illegal or not.. then you can tell us all that all those workers are illegals.. Guess you only know something IF it suits you???
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Old 01-25-2008, 05:28 PM
 
608 posts, read 881,266 times
Reputation: 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arizona Bound View Post
It sure is funny how you DON'T know how many ARE illegal.. but for some reason.. you can tell us that all the road workers, and companies hired by the city are all illegals.. but in your last post, you stated that you have many from south of the border.. but DIDN'T know and couldn't say if they are illegal or not.. then you can tell us all that all those workers are illegals.. Guess you only know something IF it suits you???
I never said all workers in these areas were illegal nor did I imply the workers were from south of the border. In fact my last post never even mentioned a country. It has been published in our local papers some time ago regarding city contracts and use of illegal labor. It is just that no one seemed to follow on the claims in teh article as it appears the jobs were not taken away en mass.
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Old 01-25-2008, 05:50 PM
 
608 posts, read 881,266 times
Reputation: 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Synopsis View Post
Because those companies don't pay a livable wage. Americans have a necessity to keep up their standard of living, and it's not because of greed. It's because many have mortgages and other such staples of American life. Provide these people with a livable wage and stop pocketing the profits from slave labor and there would be plenty of Americans applying for these jobs.

They've don it in the past. How do you think this great country was built, through illegal immigration? No, it was not. Please don't try and confuse the issue with assumptions based upon bias; these will be dealt with harshly in the future on this forum, I promise they will.

People coming here to work from South of the border, which I might remind you is still illegal, have none of that baggage.

These companies are profiting off the backs of slave labor, and are willing to do so for PROFIT. They don't care about laws and are the most egregious violators with most of the responsibility for this mess.
Companies pocket profits but at the same time pay dividents to stock holders. Pressure for profit and increased stock prices are placed on companies by the very Americans who complain about the slave (your opinion) labor and lost jobs. I don't deny this is a viscious cycle but it is real.

I really must respond to how this country was jump started to compete with European countries. Immigrants may have come legally (passports and documentation was not required at that time... remember the term WOP? With-Out Papers) during the industrial revolution but they were abused and paid very little by comparative means. In fact they were probably treated worse than illegal immigrants of today. They did not have a voice until the unions stepped in and helped to improve labor conditions, employee protection laws and even pay. So while we discuss illegal immigration and the alleged slave labor I find it hard to believe that the salaries that these workers are being paid are as low as one would believe. How else do you explain billions of of remittances flowing out of the US each year?
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Old 01-25-2008, 06:06 PM
 
Location: Fort Worth/Dallas
11,878 posts, read 32,928,542 times
Reputation: 5539
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonCynic View Post
Companies pocket profits but at the same time pay dividents to stock holders. Pressure for profit and increased stock prices are placed on companies by the very Americans who complain about the slave (your opinion) labor and lost jobs. I don't deny this is a viscious cycle but it is real.
It most certainly is real, and that reality can be changed, can it not? Your argument doesn't old any water; it is the same old "well it is the status quo." As for the rest of your statement, I don't consider them a serious debate after your first paragraph - it's the same old debate that says "things are as they are, we just have to accept them."

Also, your point doesn't address the "livable wage" issue. Things have changed in the last 40 years, and they can change (for the positive) again.

Please remain on-topic and don't try and confuse the issue being argued. I'm not willing to to tolerate these types of tactics.
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Old 01-26-2008, 10:12 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,816,809 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonCynic View Post
I actually do care and would like to see controlled immigration but the reality is that the chances of that happening in my lifetime are pretty bleak and I am pretty young so... I have posted sometime in the past that if we were to realistically deport all we still have a labor gap of more than 8 million workers. No one has ever explained how we would address that without raising the cost of just about everything. So I pay a little now via taxes and deal with it. Now regarding "free loading" true there are those that take advantage. But we also have citizens taking advantage of welfare, unemployment, miss stating tax info for larger returns, etc. So in the 80s we complained about free loaders on welfare and now we complain about illegals taking advantage. Just as the issue of welfare has taken a backseat immigration will to in time as well. I believe immigration taking a backseat to other issues is more realistic than the US actually controlling immigration.
The 'issue' of welfare did not take a “backseat.” It is no longer a ‘top’ issue today primarily due to “Welfare Reform” -- which modified the eligibility requirements; mandating employment for the vast majority of recipients. Employers were also granted tax reductions and other incentives to employ former welfare recipients through the Welfare-To-Work Program. It was a win/win. The recipient became a productive member of society, and earned a certain portion of the monthly allotment; and the employer filled a vacancy and received an attractive tax break.

Unfortunately, Welfare Reform ended in 2002, resulting in a return to many of the abuses the reform had curtailed. In any case; the program was intended to assist legal citizens of this country.

An excerpt from a White House article on Welfare Reform:

Last year, Congress began the process of reauthorizing the historic, bipartisan 1996 welfare reform law. According to the Department of Health and Human Services, welfare reform helped to move 4.7 million Americans from welfare dependency to self-sufficiency within three years of enactment, and the number of welfare caseloads has declined by 54% since 1996. The 1996 welfare reform law expired at the end of last year. President Bush is calling on Congress to act now to sustain and expand on the success of welfare reform.

Welfare Reform Works

There is no comparison between welfare for legal citizens of this country, and massive uncontrolled illegal immigration. Illegal immigration is much too volatile to ever take a “backseat.” Nor will it become a ‘non-issue’ supplanted by the next ‘big’ issue. This is a monumental problem that MUST be dealt with. It is tantamount to a malignancy –- if ignored, it will only continue to spread, and will eventually decimate our sovereignty, and our nation as we know it. Quite a difference.
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Old 01-26-2008, 10:15 AM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,628,664 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post

Unfortunately, Welfare Reform ended in 2002, resulting in a return to many of the abuses the reform had curtailed. In any case; the program was intended to assist legal citizens of this country.
Call me cynical here: note which party held both the White House and both houses of Congress from 2001-06--------and, the Neo-Cons blame Clinton?!?

That angry post coming from a Republican----------me!
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Old 01-26-2008, 10:16 AM
 
1,304 posts, read 2,921,982 times
Reputation: 393
well put!

and we all know the hidden agenda's that lerk in the shadows of all the pro-illegals!
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Old 01-26-2008, 10:19 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,816,809 times
Reputation: 3028
You are both right on the money!
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Old 01-26-2008, 10:46 AM
 
608 posts, read 881,266 times
Reputation: 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Synopsis View Post
It most certainly is real, and that reality can be changed, can it not? Your argument doesn't old any water; it is the same old "well it is the status quo." As for the rest of your statement, I don't consider them a serious debate after your first paragraph - it's the same old debate that says "things are as they are, we just have to accept them."

Also, your point doesn't address the "livable wage" issue. Things have changed in the last 40 years, and they can change (for the positive) again.

Please remain on-topic and don't try and confuse the issue being argued. I'm not willing to to tolerate these types of tactics.
I get back to topic at the bottom but I would like to first respond...

All anyone in this forum is doing is complaining and stating that they are not going to vote because nothing will change. I have only seen a select few ideas as to how to tackle the issue of immigration. The other 80% (maybe more) is nothing but grand standing and posting of video clips or articles that one could argue are more hate based than anything else. There are very few discussions of realistic actions to resolve this issue. Why do I come here? I am always curious about how all sides thing and reason. I too believe we need to secure our borders and control immigration so that we are not flooded to the point of high unemployment. However, our current unemployment doesn't support this action from our government as it is not considered a crisis level. Should we wait until crisis levels NO! And since our government is not moving as fast as many people would like, states are taking action. This is how change starts and this IS action although slow. But the US does not like quick action or change as it shocks the system. When we do encounter a shock, we pass laws, regulations and trade restrictions so as to stop future shocks form occurring. We manage panic when we don't have control.

Livable wages? Sorry but that doesn't mean a whole lot to me. Could you please qualify that? Do you mean above poverty line or do you mean the ability to buy cars, homes and no worries of medical bills? Understanding Poverty in America Now if we actually had millions of people unable to eat and suffering of malnutrition caused by illegal immigration then we have a crisis situation. But we don't.

This is the land of opportunity and we are free to make it what we want. If one does not like their current trade or they have been displaced due to off shoring there are retraining programs and many creative ways to return to school and train for something else. One could argue for those who are not able to change their trade due to age or other disability but I truly believe where there is a will there is a way and people will figure it out. Today this is no longer a pie in the sky ideal. I believe we as citizens of the US would rather complain about a lost job or salaries not increasing because it is easy. You ask "why should I have to retrain I had a good job"? Well it is easier to place blame than to actually be proactive. WE know what is happening with offshoring and that should have been a wake up call. Yet we prefer to sit back, compalin and place blame. Lets face it... the world around us changes never standing still. If we do not suck it up as a nation and evolve with the rest of the world or stay one step ahead then yes we deserve what we get.

Now back to topic. 1 in 10 in Arizona illegal? Seems very high but if this is true then I would be interested to see how things turn out with illegals supposedly self deporting. I would hope those from Arizona will report back on how service (restaurants, cleaning, hotels, fast food, etc.) or other industries with alleged high immigrant workers is affected by illegals leaving the state.
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