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Old 02-06-2008, 08:29 PM
 
83 posts, read 248,668 times
Reputation: 59

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Quote:
Originally Posted by SimpleMan View Post
All SuperMario and NYC0127 are trying to do with their belligerent rants is to anger people. Don't take their bait and get yourself in trouble, especially the one who baited everyone with his e-mail address, if you say what you want to say to him on his personal e-mail he can press charges.

As far as the OP, I commend the veteran who cut down that flag, because he truly knows what that flag means. He fought for the very freedom that is provided so stupid people can run their mouths and bad mouth this country. Raising the Mexican flag above the American flag on US soil was a slap in the face to the many men and women who have fought and died for this country, but some spoiled brat punks around here don't understand that. If it was me there, that SOB would have got it a lot worse than just having his flag cut down. I, and I'm sure many others on this forum, feel a surge of pride when they see the American flag flying, and truly know exactly how this soldier felt when he saw it disrespected.
Perhaps racism isn't quite the proper word (although in some cases it certainly is), but this post (and nearly all of the others I have read) have an air of superiority I was shocked to see from fellow Americans. In order to help you understand, I will give you this analogy:

Let's say you, for whatever reason, decide to immigrate to another first-world country with a vastly different culture--how about Japan, for example. You are far more successful in Japan than you were in America, and assimilate into the Japanese culture after a while. However, you are concerned that you may be losing touch with the American culture you left behind. To show that, though you are now Japanese, you are still an American at heart, you fly the American flag, along with the Japanese flag, above your home or business. Suddenly you are confronted with hatred from the local Japanese community, escalating into hatred from the nation as a whole.

Of course, this could never happen in another first world country, because I don't know of a single one with a law as preposterous as this. Maybe it's because you don't live in NYC, but some of you do not yet understand how valuable immigrants--legal or not, are to American society. Lest you forget that your ancestors were once immigrants--hell, the Pilgrims were illegal immigrants.

But what shocks me most is that there was no discussion of whether or not the owners of this establishment arrived here legally or not. Would you still want them to leave if they were legal immigrants? If so, isn't that a complete disregard for the First Amendment.

Finally, you are all acting as though everyone who lives in America is required to be patriotic and love their country, and when someone doesn't display these alleged fundamental values, he is criticized in excess by the media. I live in America, but I certainly don't love it here. It's got its pros, as well as its cons. Americans aren't inherently greater than everyone else, and anyone living here has the right to say whatever he or she wants about it without having to fear persecution, or, for that matter, deportation.
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Old 02-06-2008, 08:37 PM
 
Location: Helena, Montana
2,010 posts, read 2,041,880 times
Reputation: 780
Quote:
Originally Posted by King of Kweens View Post
Perhaps racism isn't quite the proper word (although in some cases it certainly is), but this post (and nearly all of the others I have read) have an air of superiority I was shocked to see from fellow Americans. In order to help you understand, I will give you this analogy:

Let's say you, for whatever reason, decide to immigrate to another first-world country with a vastly different culture--how about Japan, for example. You are far more successful in Japan than you were in America, and assimilate into the Japanese culture after a while. However, you are concerned that you may be losing touch with the American culture you left behind. To show that, though you are now Japanese, you are still an American at heart, you fly the American flag, along with the Japanese flag, above your home or business. Suddenly you are confronted with hatred from the local Japanese community, escalating into hatred from the nation as a whole.

Of course, this could never happen in another first world country, because I don't know of a single one with a law as preposterous as this. Maybe it's because you don't live in NYC, but some of you do not yet understand how valuable immigrants--legal or not, are to American society. Lest you forget that your ancestors were once immigrants--hell, the Pilgrims were illegal immigrants.

But what shocks me most is that there was no discussion of whether or not the owners of this establishment arrived here legally or not. Would you still want them to leave if they were legal immigrants? If so, isn't that a complete disregard for the First Amendment.

Finally, you are all acting as though everyone who lives in America is required to be patriotic and love their country, and when someone doesn't display these alleged fundamental values, he is criticized in excess by the media. I live in America, but I certainly don't love it here. It's got its pros, as well as its cons. Americans aren't inherently greater than everyone else, and anyone living here has the right to say whatever he or she wants about it without having to fear persecution, or, for that matter, deportation.
If I moved to another country, I would have enough RESPECT to never even consider flying the US flag above said country's. And to suggest racism or a superiority complex because I have pride for my country and it's flag is the most asinine thing I've ever heard. Maybe you should do some research on the costs both financially and socially of illegal immigration and find out why there are so many that are upset before you run your mouth. And guess what genius, I live in a town where 70% of the population is Hispanic, a good perentage of which is illegal, and I just don't see this "value" you speak of. All I see is motivation to get as far away from here as possible.
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Old 02-06-2008, 09:22 PM
 
83 posts, read 248,668 times
Reputation: 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by SimpleMan View Post
If I moved to another country, I would have enough RESPECT to never even consider flying the US flag above said country's. And to suggest racism or a superiority complex because I have pride for my country and it's flag is the most asinine thing I've ever heard. Maybe you should do some research on the costs both financially and socially of illegal immigration and find out why there are so many that are upset before you run your mouth. And guess what genius, I live in a town where 70% of the population is Hispanic, a good perentage of which is illegal, and I just don't see this "value" you speak of. All I see is motivation to get as far away from here as possible.
I wasn't suggesting that you had a superiority complex because you had pride in your country; I was suggesting that some of the people on this forum have implied superiority over the immigrants--some legal, some illegal--currently residing in America.

And I have indeed done research on the financial and social impacts of illegal immigration. Financially, it benefits the US in the long run, as immigrants are given chances that they may not have gotten in the nations they previously lived in. Socially, it makes for a much more open-minded, diverse culture.

And with regards to the flag, what if, going back to my analogy, you displayed your American flag to the left of the Japanese flag, which, unbeknownst to you, was a symbol of superiority, or hatred, to the Japanese (it isn't but, for the purposes of this analogy, assume it is true).

Do you think that when the proprietors of that establishment put up the Mexican flag above the American flag, they were thinking, "Oh, I think we're better than Americans; let's show that by putting the Mexican flag above the American flag"? I highly doubt it; I find it more likely that they simply placed their flag higher than ours because they wanted visibilty from the street, or, even more likely, for no reason at all.

Everyone's entitled to their own opinion, and I'd love to hear some of your responses.
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Old 02-06-2008, 09:24 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,611,035 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by King of Kweens View Post
Perhaps racism isn't quite the proper word (although in some cases it certainly is), but this post (and nearly all of the others I have read) have an air of superiority I was shocked to see from fellow Americans. In order to help you understand, I will give you this analogy:

Let's say you, for whatever reason, decide to immigrate to another first-world country with a vastly different culture--how about Japan, for example. You are far more successful in Japan than you were in America, and assimilate into the Japanese culture after a while. However, you are concerned that you may be losing touch with the American culture you left behind. To show that, though you are now Japanese, you are still an American at heart, you fly the American flag, along with the Japanese flag, above your home or business. Suddenly you are confronted with hatred from the local Japanese community, escalating into hatred from the nation as a whole.

Of course, this could never happen in another first world country, because I don't know of a single one with a law as preposterous as this. Maybe it's because you don't live in NYC, but some of you do not yet understand how valuable immigrants--legal or not, are to American society. Lest you forget that your ancestors were once immigrants--hell, the Pilgrims were illegal immigrants.

But what shocks me most is that there was no discussion of whether or not the owners of this establishment arrived here legally or not. Would you still want them to leave if they were legal immigrants? If so, isn't that a complete disregard for the First Amendment.

Finally, you are all acting as though everyone who lives in America is required to be patriotic and love their country, and when someone doesn't display these alleged fundamental values, he is criticized in excess by the media. I live in America, but I certainly don't love it here. It's got its pros, as well as its cons. Americans aren't inherently greater than everyone else, and anyone living here has the right to say whatever he or she wants about it without having to fear persecution, or, for that matter, deportation.
We as a nation have the right to control our borders; last time I checked, illegal immigration is just that----------illegal.

Hell; Mexico is very strict about illegal immigration from Guatemala, etc-------if you or I am caught SOB, we are screwed.

As for illegals here; they have the same rights as any other lawbreaker.
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Old 02-06-2008, 09:41 PM
 
Location: Helena, Montana
2,010 posts, read 2,041,880 times
Reputation: 780
Quote:
Originally Posted by King of Kweens View Post
I wasn't suggesting that you had a superiority complex because you had pride in your country; I was suggesting that some of the people on this forum have implied superiority over the immigrants--some legal, some illegal--currently residing in America.
The only thing I've seen is people saying American jobs should go to AMERICANS before illegal immigrants. To me, that's they right thing to do, not superiority.

Quote:
And I have indeed done research on the financial and social impacts of illegal immigration. Financially, it benefits the US in the long run, as immigrants are given chances that they may not have gotten in the nations they previously lived in. Socially, it makes for a much more open-minded, diverse culture.
No, it does NOT. They take way more in social services, education, jobs and depressed American wages than they contribute in services. Not to mention illegal labor is on the borderline of slavery, and that's not something you endorse, is it? Your entire paragraph from above would be agreeable if you were talking about LEGAL immigration, but in no way describes ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION, I hope you understand the difference, as many like to blur that line.

Quote:
Do you think that when the proprietors of that establishment put up the Mexican flag above the American flag, they were thinking, "Oh, I think we're better than Americans; let's show that by putting the Mexican flag above the American flag"? I highly doubt it; I find it more likely that they simply placed their flag higher than ours because they wanted visibilty from the street, or, even more likely, for no reason at all.
Do you think the MILLIONS of Mexicans in the protests in '06 didn't know that waving millions of Mexican flags was disrespectful? That's what I highly doubt, just as I highly doubt this store owner was clueless as to what he was doing was disrespectful.

New York I'm sure is quite a bit different that border states that have entire towns over run with illegals who have no reservations of making it obvious that they hate America and everything it stands for, and in fact think this is THEIR land that was stolen from them. Back in the days of conquering, when a country over took a territory they lowered the flag of the previous inhabitants and raised their flag in victory, claiming it as their own, and Americans like me took this person raising the Mexican flag above America's as just that.

Last edited by SimpleMan; 02-06-2008 at 10:07 PM..
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Old 02-06-2008, 10:24 PM
 
7 posts, read 13,555 times
Reputation: 12
I agree with King of Kweens. It is important to not mistake immigration policy as hatred, or something that to many appears as hatred, towards another ethnicity.

Quote:
That said, New York I'm sure is quite a bit different that border states that have entire towns over run with illegals who have no reservations of making it obvious that they hate America and everything it stands for, and in fact think this is THEIR land that was stolen from them.
Again we are sterotyping people based on the actions of the few who have stood out in the media. As mentioned on the cnn website editorial, "Besides, the spectacle with the Mexican flags was no different than what happened a few weeks later when American Jews marched in Los Angeles and New York, waiving the Israeli flag to show support for Israel in its war against Hezbollah. About that, there were few complaints."
Commentary:* Town makes it illegal to fly a foreign flag - CNN.com has some really strong points listed, however I won't go into them, check it out yourself.

Considering, that the land in which you say is being "stolen away from them" by the Mexicans, or do we prefer immigrants, either way we are taking about the same people considering most posts, but that is an argument for later, anyways this land was originally owned by Mexico. In the 1800s, Americans were settling on Texas, "stealing their land", until our army came in and, well if you get my meaning it was hardly a "fair fight". So now I ask you whose land is it really?

Before a wrap this up I feel that it is important to not be xenophobic, to have an open mind, and not judge before you have seen, hear, and know, everything there is to see, hear, and know. That is not to say that you shouldn't have opinions, but rather to be willing to change them.

Last edited by Kealariser; 02-06-2008 at 10:33 PM..
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Old 02-06-2008, 10:45 PM
 
Location: Helena, Montana
2,010 posts, read 2,041,880 times
Reputation: 780
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealariser View Post
I agree with King of Kweens. It is important to not mistake immigration policy as hatred, or something that to many appears as hatred, towards another ethnicity.

Again we are sterotyping people based on the actions of the few who have stood out in the media. As mentioned on the cnn website editorial, "Besides, the spectacle with the Mexican flags was no different than what happened a few weeks later when American Jews marched in Los Angeles and New York, waiving the Israeli flag to show support for Israel in its war against Hezbollah. About that, there were few complaints."
Commentary:* Town makes it illegal to fly a foreign flag - CNN.com really strong points listed, however I won't go into them, check it out yourself.

Considering, that the land in which you say is being "stolen away from them" by the Mexicans, or do we prefer immigrants, either way we are taking about the same people considering most posts, but that is an argument for later, anyways this land was originally owned by Mexico. In the 1800s, Americans were settling on Texas, "stealing their land", until our army came in and, well if you get my meaning it was hardly a "fair fight". So now I ask you whose land is it really?

Before a wrap this up I feel that it is important to not be xenophobic, to have an open mind, and not judge before you have seen, hear, and know, everything there is to see, hear, and know. That is not to say that you shouldn't have opinions, but rather to be willing to change them.
And I am asking all with your mindset to understand the difference between LEGAL and ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION. It is asinine to call people xenophobic, racist or ignorant because we want our government to enforce it's laws. We have TOO MANY people in our country who have no desire to be part of it, have pride in it or obey it's laws. This is the problem. Those who come through legal channels are welcome and commended, no matter what the race. The 20 million who ignored immigration policies, skipped to the front of the line insulting those who aquired citizenship legally are not welcome here, and need to leave. I, as an American, have every right to be angry when people who live in my country have no respect for it and publicly display their disrespect. Those who are hard workers, just here for a better life, are still criminals. They still broke the law and should have gone through the legal process to better their lives and the lives of their families. There are too many problems caused by millions of people, whom we know absolutely nothing about (murderers, rapists, child molesters, etc.), not paying taxes, and costing taxpayers billions. If you want to label people negatively for not wanting these things, you should really sit down and think about what you're saying.

And as far as your question about who's land this is, referring to the Mexican-American war, whether just or not it's reality. Our country is established, it has borders and immigration laws for a reason, and they need to be respected.
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Old 02-06-2008, 11:56 PM
 
23 posts, read 80,089 times
Reputation: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by ProLogic View Post
I was using it as a scenario. And I am an American, I was born here buddy.
With the attitudes you've conveighed in this thread you'll never be my countrymen.

Being "born" here doesn't necessarily mean anything these days...
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Old 02-07-2008, 06:44 AM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,611,035 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealariser View Post
I agree with King of Kweens. It is important to not mistake immigration policy as hatred, or something that to many appears as hatred, towards another ethnicity.

Again we are sterotyping people based on the actions of the few who have stood out in the media. As mentioned on the cnn website editorial, "Besides, the spectacle with the Mexican flags was no different than what happened a few weeks later when American Jews marched in Los Angeles and New York, waiving the Israeli flag to show support for Israel in its war against Hezbollah. About that, there were few complaints."
Commentary:* Town makes it illegal to fly a foreign flag - CNN.com has some really strong points listed, however I won't go into them, check it out yourself.

Considering, that the land in which you say is being "stolen away from them" by the Mexicans, or do we prefer immigrants, either way we are taking about the same people considering most posts, but that is an argument for later, anyways this land was originally owned by Mexico. In the 1800s, Americans were settling on Texas, "stealing their land", until our army came in and, well if you get my meaning it was hardly a "fair fight". So now I ask you whose land is it really?

Before a wrap this up I feel that it is important to not be xenophobic, to have an open mind, and not judge before you have seen, hear, and know, everything there is to see, hear, and know. That is not to say that you shouldn't have opinions, but rather to be willing to change them.
Be careful there: the Spanish took the land from the Aztecs, etc. yet I head nada about the 'Hispanics' being told they need to leave Mexico, etc. and head 'home' to Spain.

Hell: even the Navajo arrived here about 1,000 years ago; probably running off/absorbing prior indigenous peoples yet I do not hear jack from the MEChA types demanding that the former leave.

Bottom line: the indigenous peoples were too weak to hold onto their land/culture and were simply defeated by a bigger, badder group of 'Indians'.

Not saying it was right or wrong; things happen throughout history.

The past cannot be changed.
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Old 02-07-2008, 08:07 AM
 
Location: Arizona
2,065 posts, read 3,173,411 times
Reputation: 391
To those of you who try to justify Mexican animosity to the U.S. based upon our 'stealing the land' argument, I think a little history lesson is in order. Mexico obtained it's independence from Spain in 1821. At that time the Mexicans had little or no control over the northern 1/3 of their new nation, as the Native American population of that time was having none of it. Every time the Mexicans came 'El Norte' the Indians would slaughter them wholesale. Consequently, Mexico INVITED Americans to come settle in Texas, to serve as a conquering force and a buffer to those Native Americans.

Texians, as they were called, became disillusioned with their representation (or lack thereof) and decided to become their own country in 1835. The following year they defeated Santa Anna in the Battle of San Jacinto, resulting in the creation of the Republic of Texas. Mexico never officially recognized the Republic of Texas, animosities and skirmishes continued sporadically, and a major dispute occurred over the location of Texas' southern border. Mexico said it was the Nueces River, Texas said it was the Rio Grande.

As hostilities over this increased, Texas decided to ask the United States to come to their rescue, with the U.S. annexing the country in 1845. In 1846, a 2,000-strong Mexican cavalry detachment attacked a 63-man U.S. patrol that had been sent into the contested territory north of the Rio Grande and south of the Nueces River. The Mexican cavalry succeeded in routing the patrol, killing 11 U.S. soldiers in what later became known as the Thornton Affair, after the slain U.S. officer who was in command. A few survivors returned to Fort Brown. Thus began the Mexican-American war.

In 1848, after U.S. Marines had marched to Mexico City and captured it, the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo was signed, ceding the territories of the north to the United States. In addition, the U.S. forgave $3 million in Mexican debt, and paid $15 million for the ceded territory, an amount comparable to $3.4 billion today.

So let's recap...

Mexico became a country in 1821
Texas became a country in 1836
Texas became a state in 1845
The Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo was signed in 1848

So Mexico held these disputed territories for 15 years before THEIR OWN CITIZENS revolted, becoming their own Republic. Nine years later that Republic became a state. Three years after that Mexico SIGNED OVER TITLE in exchange for LOTS of money.

Tell me again how this land was 'stolen'????
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