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Old 02-01-2008, 11:37 PM
 
Location: southern california
50,249 posts, read 47,579,412 times
Reputation: 41650

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pluralism is functional?
at some point we need to measure ideals
against results?
a lot of what is being called social identity
is really nothing more than bad behavior,
and would never be tolerated in country of
origin?
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Old 02-01-2008, 11:55 PM
 
47,585 posts, read 35,904,646 times
Reputation: 21592
Quote:
Originally Posted by DD70 View Post
Agreed. However not to seem daft but how did you speak to them? Do you speak Spanish? Hey it is a legit Q. And to make my position clear I am against these types of illegal immigrants. IMO if you plan to stay then you like everybody else needs to follow protocol and procedures.


Agreed also! However are we going to put the burden on Illegal immigrants? People will do what you allow them to do. If there wasn't a need there would not be such a huge influx every single day! I blame the greed of Corporations and private businesses! Isn't about time we put the blame where it belongs?
Pues si -- hablo espanol. -- yes -- I spoke to them in Spanish and there are a lot of illegals around where I live and I'm familiar with quite a number of cases and I know some deportees.

There are different kinds of illegals -- some cross the border, find work and are paid cash but are not using stolen identification papers or trying to be real dishonest. Then there are those who cross the border and try to give birth figuring that gets them special privileges and a nice welfare life.

But yes -- many are homesick when they first arrive. They miss their children and wife back home -- but absence of the father or mother is not a good thing for the family. Often these families end up breaking apart, and often there is a wife back home and live-in girlfriend in the USA and a new family started here.

To me there are many many reasons that massive illegal immigration is wrong. One is that it's an exploitable class of people. Another is the damage done to the families. Another is that it doesn't build up their local economies back home so that every year we see ever higher numbers of them crossing the border and even dying trying.

Here is one true case -- many years ago a 32 year old woman's husband left to find work in the USA. After a few months he quit sending money and she never heard from him again -- likely he found a new life -- including a new woman -- in the USA and decided a wife with 9 young children back home was too big a burden.

So this woman packed up her bags and she too headed north, leaving her 9 young children with an ailing mother. She worked long hours cleaning homes -- as many homes as she could clean and would send money back. She would get back to visit every few years. I knew this woman when she was an older woman --- because I knew the family that employed her. As her kids grew up, they ran into all kinds of problems since their grandmother wasn't really capable of raising them -- they were being raised mostly on the streets and were getting into gangs and alcohol and drug abuse.

This woman would send money to bail her older kids out -- but by the time she retired, she was so disappointed with how they were, she retired in a northern border city -- far from her hometown and kids. She worked all those years but of course had no pension or social security or health care. She had some kind of gall-bladder infection and died in a poor Juarez clinic. Far from her hometown and kids who turned out useless anyhow.

I have a neighbor that also left some kids back in Mexico and had another family here but he wants nothing to do with his own kids from Mexico because he says none of them turned out any good. They're also grown and try to come live with him but the kids he raised here turned out okay.
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Old 02-02-2008, 12:11 AM
 
47,585 posts, read 35,904,646 times
Reputation: 21592
Quote:
Originally Posted by DD70 View Post
Agreed also! However are we going to put the burden on Illegal immigrants? People will do what you allow them to do. If there wasn't a need there would not be such a huge influx every single day! I blame the greed of Corporations and private businesses! Isn't about time we put the blame where it belongs?

Yes -- it is also about greed. Big profits from the cheapest possible labor. Another bad aspect of illegal migration.

The illegals who leave their families behind in Mexico are often the better types who don't want government handouts and can support their families in Mexico but with the low pay given to illegals, they coudn't support them here even if they brought them.

Many illegals here even if they work, cannot earn enough to pay for their children so they rely on food stamps, Medicaid and so on to provide for them. It's a choice -- have pride and self-reliance but leave the family back home and never see them -- or bring them here and put them on the dole.

And the employers? Sure -- they could legally sponsor immigrants -- but why should they when instead they can get by with bringing in illegals who will work for little and the employer can easily skip the financial responsibility he would have to have for legal immigrants.

It disrupts both cultures. I have nothing against the Mexican culture in Mexico and really I hate to see it being destroyed there and what is brought into the USA is not the same thing -- nor could it ever really be the same thing. I believe in countries -- countries having their own traditions and cultures. I also believe in immigration -- some people belong in a country they weren't born in -- because they fit better with another people and culture.
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Old 02-02-2008, 12:12 AM
 
335 posts, read 711,018 times
Reputation: 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunky39 View Post
pluralism is functional?
at some point we need to measure ideals
against results?
a lot of what is being called social identity
is really nothing more than bad behavior,
and would never be tolerated in country of
origin?
lolz. Why did you change your original post? It did not get the effective response that you were hoping for?

Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
Pues si -- hablo espanol. -- yes -- I spoke to them in Spanish and there are a lot of illegals around where I live and I'm familiar with quite a number of cases and I know some deportees.

There are different kinds of illegals -- some cross the border, find work and are paid cash but are not using stolen identification papers or trying to be real dishonest. Then there are those who cross the border and try to give birth figuring that gets them special privileges and a nice welfare life.

But yes -- many are homesick when they first arrive. They miss their children and wife back home -- but absence of the father or mother is not a good thing for the family. Often these families end up breaking apart, and often there is a wife back home and live-in girlfriend in the USA and a new family started here.

To me there are many many reasons that massive illegal immigration is wrong. One is that it's an exploitable class of people. Another is the damage done to the families. Another is that it doesn't build up their local economies back home so that every year we see ever higher numbers of them crossing the border and even dying trying.

Here is one true case -- many years ago a 32 year old woman's husband left to find work in the USA. After a few months he quit sending money and she never heard from him again -- likely he found a new life -- including a new woman -- in the USA and decided a wife with 9 young children back home was too big a burden.

So this woman packed up her bags and she too headed north, leaving her 9 young children with an ailing mother. She worked long hours cleaning homes -- as many homes as she could clean and would send money back. She would get back to visit every few years. I knew this woman when she was an older woman --- because I knew the family that employed her. As her kids grew up, they ran into all kinds of problems since their grandmother wasn't really capable of raising them -- they were being raised mostly on the streets and were getting into gangs and alcohol and drug abuse.

This woman would send money to bail her older kids out -- but by the time she retired, she was so disappointed with how they were, she retired in a northern border city -- far from her hometown and kids. She worked all those years but of course had no pension or social security or health care. She had some kind of gall-bladder infection and died in a poor Juarez clinic. Far from her hometown and kids who turned out useless anyhow.

I have a neighbor that also left some kids back in Mexico and had another family here but he wants nothing to do with his own kids from Mexico because he says none of them turned out any good. They're also grown and try to come live with him but the kids he raised here turned out okay.
lol @ the spanish! Touche'! And to the latter, eh, nothing special just the average Immigrant horror story. And they are exploited! Whether they are under the table or using a fake SSI card it does not take a rocket scientist to tell if a individual is illegal! As far as Juarez? let us not discuss the issues, there are alot of crimes committed by Americans here.
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Old 02-02-2008, 12:19 AM
 
47,585 posts, read 35,904,646 times
Reputation: 21592
Quote:
Originally Posted by DD70 View Post
lolz. Why did you change your original post? It did not get the effective response that you were hoping for?


lol @ the spanish! Touche'! And to the latter, eh, nothing special just the average Immigrant horror story. And they are exploited! Whether they are under the table or using a fake SSI card it does not take a rocket scientist to tell if a individual is illegal! As far as Juarez? let us not discuss the issues, there are alot of crimes committed by Americans here.
Here's an immigrant happy ending story. One time in Chihuahua, I got to talking with a guy from there who told me how he worked a summer in Wisconsin. I assume he came illegally because he said he did it for the adventure of it mostly -- hopped a train and worked on a dairy farm.

He said he liked Wisconsin -- thought the people were friendly, the land was beautiful and green, and the money was good but he realized that in his heart he would always be a Mexican and would miss Mexico so he went back home where the money isn't so good but he was happy and at home, with the people he cared about and in the country he loved and belonged to.
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Old 02-02-2008, 12:29 AM
 
Location: southern california
50,249 posts, read 47,579,412 times
Reputation: 41650
dd70 - no, but i recently discovered a wonderful new button (new to me) called "edit" or foot in mouth button. i get 90 minutes to think about what i just said.
i love it, use it all the time now. i did not know i was trying to get a response? should i be? i was more focused on my foot in mouth avoidance thing.
thanks
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Old 02-02-2008, 12:32 AM
 
335 posts, read 711,018 times
Reputation: 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
Yes -- it is also about greed. Big profits from the cheapest possible labor. Another bad aspect of illegal migration.

The illegals who leave their families behind in Mexico are often the better types who don't want government handouts and can support their families in Mexico but with the low pay given to illegals, they coudn't support them here even if they brought them.

Many illegals here even if they work, cannot earn enough to pay for their children so they rely on food stamps, Medicaid and so on to provide for them. It's a choice -- have pride and self-reliance but leave the family back home and never see them -- or bring them here and put them on the dole.

And the employers? Sure -- they could legally sponsor immigrants -- but why should they when instead they can get by with bringing in illegals who will work for little and the employer can easily skip the financial responsibility he would have to have for legal immigrants.

It disrupts both cultures. I have nothing against the Mexican culture in Mexico and really I hate to see it being destroyed there and what is brought into the USA is not the same thing -- nor could it ever really be the same thing. I believe in countries -- countries having their own traditions and cultures. I also believe in immigration -- some people belong in a country they weren't born in -- because they fit better with another people and culture.
Again I agree with you!They are exploited beyond belief and at the hands of greed! And yes they do have a choice to make and often times seperation is not a question.
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Old 02-02-2008, 12:35 AM
 
335 posts, read 711,018 times
Reputation: 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunky39 View Post
dd70 - no, but i recently discovered a wonderful new button (new to me) called "edit" or foot in mouth button. i get 90 minutes to think about what i just said.
i love it, use it all the time now. i did not know i was trying to get a response? should i be? i was more focused on my foot in mouth avoidance thing.
thanks
AHAHAHAHAHAHA! Whatever the case may be...don't let it happen again!

Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
Here's an immigrant happy ending story. One time in Chihuahua, I got to talking with a guy from there who told me how he worked a summer in Wisconsin. I assume he came illegally because he said he did it for the adventure of it mostly -- hopped a train and worked on a dairy farm.

He said he liked Wisconsin -- thought the people were friendly, the land was beautiful and green, and the money was good but he realized that in his heart he would always be a Mexican and would miss Mexico so he went back home where the money isn't so good but he was happy and at home, with the people he cared about and in the country he loved and belonged to.
True, sometimes it just doesn't work out!
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Old 02-02-2008, 03:16 AM
 
1,156 posts, read 1,379,691 times
Reputation: 315
Quote:
Originally Posted by townin View Post
When people in this country suggest to people, usually foreign or minority, that they should assmilate, I'm always dumbfounded by what is being asked and what that means. What is essentially being asked of those who don't necesarily view themselves as just primarily American citizens? Who is being made to feel comfortable by that assimilation? Why aren't we able to respect the fact that we as humans are both different and complex? Why is a high school concept such as assmilation offered as a way to in fact "remedy" the differences rather than an honest complex investigation and mutual respect amongs those of different heritages and backgrounds? I also ask what is American culture if isn't anything but a combination of "borrowed" traditions and customs (pizza, hip-hop, Washington Redskins,") from other ACTUAL cultures? Is assimilation offered as a simple fix from a simple people?
You do realize that illegal immigrants should not assimilate, they may have to return to their own country. For those here legally, we have a rich culture unlike any other....Americans have more important inventions than any other country, Hollywood, country, jazz, rock in roll, etc.
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Old 02-02-2008, 07:49 AM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,157 posts, read 26,606,773 times
Reputation: 3668
Quote:
Originally Posted by DD70 View Post
lolz. Why did you change your original post? It did not get the effective response that you were hoping for?


lol @ the spanish! Touche'! And to the latter, eh, nothing special just the average Immigrant horror story. And they are exploited! Whether they are under the table or using a fake SSI card it does not take a rocket scientist to tell if a individual is illegal! As far as Juarez? let us not discuss the issues, there are alot of crimes committed by Americans here.
For the record:

Illegal immigrants have the same rights as any other lawbreaker.

Now; if we are discussing legal ones; I agree with most of what you said.

Needless to say; penalizing employers who knowingly hire illegals-------they deserve what they get.

NOTE: I am not referring to hiring one or two day laborers for a few days worth of 'cash work'-------I am talking about long term hires being paid $$$. The latter are by far the real problem.
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