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Location: Oklahoma(formerly SoCalif) Originally Mich,
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America the disintegrating?
Posted: January 30, 2008
1:00 a.m. Eastern
Whether "America the Beautiful" quickly is becoming "America the Disintegrating," is the top question asked by writer, speaker and columnist Pat Buchanan in his book "Day of Reckoning," the top selection at Shop.WND.com this week.
"Torn apart by a culture war, America has begun to Balkanize and break down along class, cultural, ethnic, and racial lines," he writes. "Free trade is hollowing out U.S. industry, destroying the dollar, and plunging the country into permanent dependency and unpayable debt. One of every six U.S. manufacturing jobs vanished under Bush. The Third World invasion through Mexico is a graver threat to U.S. survival than anything happening in Afghanistan or Iraq…"
Buchanan reveals in his book the true existential crisis of the nation.
How do you think the Americans treated the Irish upon their arrival? And what about the immigrants from ellis island who turned parts of New England into slums?
I DO think Buchanan's ideas are very much on the mark. I think he's a brilliant thinker, and its sad to see him marginalized because he's not Politically Correct. His messages certainly aren't "cheery".....(who says they SHOULD be?) The situation needs to be addressed, and if something's going wrong, it needs to be fixed. That's true for a car, true for a business, a person, or a nation. If it's "sick", then it needs to start living and operating by healthier new rules.
I'm not quite as familiar with the other writers, but to me, Buchanan's logic is unassailable: You just can't HAVE a country, without some common "purpose" or agreed-upon goal, or standards. This means ( ouch !) a "culture"....which then means ( double ouch !) that NOT EVERYONE or EVERYTHING will "fit in'---or can be 'allowed'. NO company, no family, no organization, no group, allows EVERYONE IN. It's just not possible, and EVERY SINGLE ONE of us knows this---we just can't SAY it, because it sounds like we're EXCLUDING someone. Well, as a matter of fact, we are, and we MUST.
The time is fast approaching when the very DEFINITION of a "country" is going to be tested. What, exactly, IS a country? And what is the importance of laws and standards in defining a country?...and what does a COUNTRY do with those who can not, or WILL not, conform themselves to ITS laws?---to ITS requirements? Can a country "make" people conform? If they don't, can a country refuse their entry? Is an organization which has NO right to set any standards concerning its members really a "country" at ALL? And lastly, has there ever BEEN a country, anywhere on earth, at any time in history, that has allowed free and unrestricted immigration, requires NO loyalty of its "inhabitants" (legal or not), and allows ALL of its inhabitants their choice of ANY CULTURE THEY CHOOSE, while guranteeing everyone else this SAME FREEDOM? If there's never BEEN such a place, WHY NOT?
I think these are fair questions, and I think they should be addressed, calmly and logically, with no mention of "racism", "xenophobia", or "feelings", or what is, or isn't "nice", or "mean". We're talking about the ability of a "nation" to exist. To do so, what things are neccessary?
I DO think Buchanan's ideas are very much on the mark. I think he's a brilliant thinker, and its sad to see him marginalized because he's not Politically Correct. His messages certainly aren't "cheery".....(who says they SHOULD be?) The situation needs to be addressed, and if something's going wrong, it needs to be fixed. That's true for a car, true for a business, a person, or a nation. If it's "sick", then it needs to start living and operating by healthier new rules.
I'm not quite as familiar with the other writers, but to me, Buchanan's logic is unassailable: You just can't HAVE a country, without some common "purpose" or agreed-upon goal, or standards. This means ( ouch !) a "culture"....which then means ( double ouch !) that NOT EVERYONE or EVERYTHING will "fit in'---or can be 'allowed'. NO company, no family, no organization, no group, allows EVERYONE IN. It's just not possible, and EVERY SINGLE ONE of us knows this---we just can't SAY it, because it sounds like we're EXCLUDING someone. Well, as a matter of fact, we are, and we MUST.
The time is fast approaching when the very DEFINITION of a "country" is going to be tested. What, exactly, IS a country? And what is the importance of laws and standards in defining a country?...and what does a COUNTRY do with those who can not, or WILL not, conform themselves to ITS laws?---to ITS requirements? Can a country "make" people conform? If they don't, can a country refuse their entry? Is an organization which has NO right to set any standards concerning its members really a "country" at ALL? And lastly, has there ever BEEN a country, anywhere on earth, at any time in history, that has allowed free and unrestricted immigration, requires NO loyalty of its "inhabitants" (legal or not), and allows ALL of its inhabitants their choice of ANY CULTURE THEY CHOOSE, while guranteeing everyone else this SAME FREEDOM? If there's never BEEN such a place, WHY NOT?
I think these are fair questions, and I think they should be addressed, calmly and logically, with no mention of "racism", "xenophobia", or "feelings", or what is, or isn't "nice", or "mean". We're talking about the ability of a "nation" to exist. To do so, what things are neccessary?
Very well said.
Introspective and thought-provoking.
I think someone mentioned this before but I sort of agree with the fact that multiculturalism goes against the whole idea of a melting pot. But there comes a moment in time when the Mariachi and the chinese new year festivals intertwine with American culture. I cannot explain it.
How do you think the Americans treated the Irish upon their arrival? And what about the immigrants from ellis island who turned parts of New England into slums?
GOOD QUESTIONS--here are the answers...
(1) How the Americans treated the Irish was with rudeness, mockery, unflattering stereotypes, and social disapproval. They were taunted, tormented, 'shut out' of polite society, and given no choice to escape this shabby treatment but to ASSIMILATE, and to do so fast, and to get rid of their "foreign-ness" in a big hurry. The prejudice continued for decades until they "proved" themselves to a VERY unwelcoming public. The Irishman was portrayed as a drunken, rosary-praying, combative "ape" in newspapers, and became the standard "butt" of American jokes, until he was finally joined by the Italian a few decades later.
(2) And what ABOUT those foreigners turning places into slums? Some were treated exactly as described above...society's disgust, a view of them as 'less than human", as dirty, stupid, and prone to criminal behavior. Newspaper cartoons belittled their appearance. Vaudeville comedians made a career out of mocking their accents and "bumbling" ways. Generations of "ethnic" jokes kept them squirming, and "real" Americans forbade their children to play with the immigrant kiddies. The public health department in big cities regularly entered and "fumigated" their homes during frequent epidemics. The inner rooms of some early tenement buildings didn't even have windows, yet held 8 or 10 people per room in unventilated squalor. Any complaint meant instant eviction. Scientists of the day associated foreign physical appearance with "The Criminal Type".
The slum dwellers had virtually NO sympathy in a harsh, dog-eat-dog world. (except for a few Church groups). They were expected to "sink or swim". Anyone who got frustrated enough to riot in the streets was met with clubs, tear gas, fire hoses, and police dogs. They were in the "greatest country in the world", HAPPY to be here, and very few were inclined to public 'grumbling' or 'griping' or rioting. They'd have been ASHAMED to act like that. They were trying to "fit in", not ANNOY the locals..They were trying to act 'civilized', not like barbarians.
And most of these people were LEGAL immigrants. ILLEGAL ones were simply turned around and sent home, ASAP. They had no "rights" at all....
In the 90's, someone predicted what was going to happen to this country by allowing "multicultures".
I'll have to find that link.
THe simplicity of the point is brought out just by your POSTING it. "Multicultures". It speaks for itself--by DEFINITION, it can't exist. It's a naive, school-boy dream.
"Cultures" contain all of a group's "defining points". From our culture, we get our notion of right and wrong, good and evil, fair and unfair, Science OR superstition, Legal redress OR private revenge, Equal or UNEQUAL rights between races and sexes,, protection OR oppression of minorites, "talking it out" or violent action, etc etc etc etc.
Cultures may coincide in certain aspects, but are NOT compatible. They are NOT negotiable, and they will NOT, on their own, simply "co-exist" peacefully, side-by-side, for very long. One culture's "good" is another culture's "evil". One culture's "aggressive bully" is another culture's "macho male". These AREN'T compatible concepts. They'll either lead to inter-cultural violence, or will neccessitate a draconian authority over all, to "force" us to get along. There will never be a "nice", freely-chosen, true Multiculturalism. No such thing. The world is full of its failed attempts.
I think someone mentioned this before but I sort of agree with the fact that multiculturalism goes against the whole idea of a melting pot. But there comes a moment in time when the Mariachi and the chinese new year festivals intertwine with American culture. I cannot explain it.
Mariachis, Chinese New Year, and dozens of comparable events and "things" don't represent core values--they are outward expressions--MOST of which cause no harm. But DEEPER cultural values CAN cause harm, and they, TOO are part of "culture"...things which conflict with OUR culture...like "sex with kiddies"---or "forced marriage"....or "wife beating".....or "honor killings"....or "private acts of revenge". These things are all cutural values. They are seen as "wrong" in our culture. We can make laws against some of them, but not all, and we can't 'make' people believe they're 'wrong'. A time could come when enough people get together and lobby to legalize some of these things, because of 'culture'.
It's NOT a far-out idea. It's already happened in a small way. A few years ago, up near Stockton (may have been in Tracy) a group of Sikhs sued the school board. Their young male kiddies (6 years and up) are 'required" to wear a ceremonial curved dagger. It's a sign of manhood, and it was stated they felt "naked" without it.
Needless to say, in "our" culture, we DON'T allow kids to come to school with daggers- OR knives, OR guns, OR brass knuckles, etc. That's OUR culture.
I don't know how it came out, but my POINT is, it WAS considered. There WAS a long series of court actions, and "somebody" tried to "push" this. It was a "clash" of incompatible values. Next time, a BIGGER group may WIN such a lawsuit, and something "unthinkable" (like carrying daggers to school) may become "OK"--for SOME of us, even while it remains "not OK" for the rest. Are we ready for that type of multiculturalism?
How do you think the Americans treated the Irish upon their arrival? And what about the immigrants from ellis island who turned parts of New England into slums?
Please stop talking about the past, you were not there. Please talk only about the here and now and what you have seen yourself. That will limit your words here no doubt.
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