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Originally Posted by unwillingphoenician
Google "maquiladora" if you're unclear on the concept. We have free trade agreements in place in which an endless stream of tractor trailers carries U.S. parts across the Mexican border where they are assembled in factories where the minimum wage is as low as 55 cents per hours. Come to Arizona and take a look if you don't get it. The goods are shipped back here, and you all buy them in department stores. Anybody complaining about that dynamic? Didn't think so.
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Wrong.
Plenty of people complained.
Apparently, you like to make things up.
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You're happy with the prices you get from slave labor.
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Exaggerate much? They're in chains? Then why did Mexico want NAFTA so badly. And if Mexican workers hate it, why don't they do something about it? Like have another revolution and otherthrow their corrupt leaders? Don't they have arms and legs, brains and intelligence? Why are they so incapable of having a government that allows them to rise up to our standard of living?
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[Why would people risk crossing the desert, having their kids raped by coyotes, and so on, if there were any possibility at all of migrating legally? Of course they would prefer to wait in line, maybe camp out for months in line even, and fill out any amount of paperwork, if there were the slightest chance at all that they could migrate legally. Some can immigrate legally, but most can't. I'm an American by birth, married for 15 years to Latina woman, who is now a citizen. When she married me and was not a citizen yet, we were humiliated for two days in a U.S. Embassy south of the border by a snot-nosed kid who tried to poke holes in our story. Of course most Latinos can't come here legally--so what then?
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Who cares? Jeez. You act as though your wife had a right to get the red carpet rolled out for her.
We have too many immigrants in this country -- legal as well as illegal. They keep pouring in, never mind how many Americans might be unemployed. This is done by our politicians against the will of the American people. Polls have always shown that Americans want fewer legal immigrants and no illegal immigrants.
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The answer on this forum seems to be, "Tough. It's their problem." Except again, we are part of a financial system that helps create that poverty, and they're aware of that. You people act like you're all that talking about U.S. debt to China, but you think that everybody south of the border is ignorant about how America impacts them. They're poor, not stupid. They get it.
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Get what? That they themselves are responsible for their own situation? Apparently not. America isn't forcing Mexico to do anything. And American citizens aren't.
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[There's a lot of talk on this forum about how this or that policy will play in Florida. What you should be worried about is how this or that policy will play in Juarez. If you really want to stop the flood of immigrants from Latin America to the United States, then support $8 per hour wages in Mexico, and be prepared to pay $10 for your tee-shirts at Walmart, instead of $4.
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I don't care what they pay people in Mexico. And if we can't get low prices on their products, companies will simply relocate elsewhere. It's interesting that India and China have greatly raised their standards of living through free trade -- but somehow, Mexico hasn't. Or maybe Mexicans just like to complain. Whatever. Don't sign trade agreements that you don't like. That's the lesson here.
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The wall is not stopping anybody.
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Maybe that's because we don't yet have a wall.
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Look at all the migrants from Asia. They come in boats.
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Yep, they cross the Pacific day and night. Sure thing.
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Here in Arizona, we have a wall, and it hasn't stopped people or jaguars (real ones) from crossing over from Mexico.
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The fence in San Diego has stopped people. They used to come in literal human waves back in the early 1990s.
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People are migratory by nature.
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Nope. That ended thousands of years ago with the development of agriculture and cities.
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You can pass all the laws you want and call Rush Limbaugh and complain all you want, but until you support some sort of social justice south of the border.
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My support or lack of support for "social justice" south of the border is guaranteed to have zero effect on whether or not there is social justice south of the border. That's a problem that can only be solved by citizens of Mexico and other Latin American countries.
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Originally Posted by BOS2IAD
No one has the right to thumb their noses at our immigration laws---or any country's immigration laws for that matter. Things are tough at home? Well, fight to make them better instead of cutting and running. Tolerating illegal immigration is a slap in the face to those who obeyed our immigration laws and patiently awaited their turn to come here. Period.
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Exactly. unwillingphoenician is only arguing the way he is because of his wife. He is trying to turn his particular situation into a moral creed. Never mind everyone else.
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Originally Posted by unwillingphoenician
If the point is to complain, fine. But if the point is to get results, you need to think of something more effective than saying that desperate people "should" do whatever you think they should do, maybe act like your grandmother from Italy who waited for a visa (because she had that option) or whatever. Because it just ain't happening. You'll sound good and maybe your buddies will pound their fists on the table along with you and you'll all feel righteous, but people will keep slipping across the border.
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They'll stop coming when we make it uncomfortable for them to come. Right now, we have a red carpet rolled out for them. Our government has not enforced its own immigration laws for decades. Send the military down to the border. Finish the fence. Make e-Verify mandatory. Quadruple the size of the border patrol. Have interior enforcement. Cross-check social security numbers. Etc. We can't deport everyone at once, but we can deport them as we catch them. We arrest hundreds of thousands of U.S. citizens a year. There is no reason why we can't do the same with illegal aliens. With enough enforcement and fewer jobs, illegals will stop coming.
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What has to happen is that we have to make Mexico economically more like Canada.
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For that to happen, Mexicans would have to be Canadians. Less corrupt, more demanding of their government, harder working and more ambitious. That isn't going to happen anytime soon.
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Immigration is a symptom of the problem, not the problem itself which is economic inequality. People should be treated fairly because that's the right thing to do, Jesus said that, but we seem to have decided to take economic advantage of our neighbors to the south.
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I'm fine with taking jobs away from Mexicans and bringing them back here. Even if a T shirt costs more. A ten dollar shirt (your figure) -- who cares?
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U.S. corporations and NAFTA have a large role in this. That's a fact.
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True. And those corporations couldn't care less about American jobs and workers. Which is why we need to elect Trump.
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Originally Posted by Packard fan
NOT our problem. Period. Let LatAm fix itself; if it means them trashing parts of their "Hispanic" culture and taking on more of the Anglo Saxon culture to do better in 2016, it is what it is.
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Exactly.
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Originally Posted by Oldglory
Why should the vast majority of Latin Americans be able to come here? Are they special? What about the rest of the world's needy that would like to come here? In case you don't know it Mexico and other Latino countries already enjoy the highest quotas to legally migrate here and that doesn't even count their numerous family reunifications on our soil.
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They are just plain selfish. And their demands for our compassion are a joke considering how little compassion they have for others.
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The Mexican government needs to make their own changes. We can't do it for them. We do treat foreigners fairly so I don't know what you mean by that.
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Exactly. Mexicans have gotten way more than their fair share of immigration slots. We should allow fewer of them to immigrate, not more.
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NAFTA hurt the American worker also
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Exactly. It was all about corporate profits, and to hell with American workers. Clinton signed off on it, by the way.
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Mexicans and other Latinos need to blame their own governments not the U.S. government for their economic woes and they can makes all the excuses they want but they have no right to violate our immigration laws and the American people and creating hardships for them.
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They should also try illegally immigrating to Spain. It was Spain that forced its language on them, not Anglos. They have a lot of nerve pretending that we owe them anything. We do not.
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Originally Posted by BOS2IAD
We, as a nation, are more than generous when it comes to legal immigration---especially for those south of the border.
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Far too generous!
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Originally Posted by unwillingphoenician
OK, you've convinced me!
Now maybe you can do something for your country!
Go to Juarez, Mexico, just over the border from El Paso. You don't need a visa unless you stay more than 90 days. Go undercover in a maquiladora where people are working for 55 cents an hour for a U.S. firm. Make connections with a coyote bringing people over the border illegally. Talk to the potential border-crossers and explain to them what a great deal they've got in Mexico, and not to come to the United States.
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Why should he?
Why should we care what Mexicans in Mexico think?
Do they care what we think?
No.
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Originally Posted by unwillingphoenician
Bro!
You have got the fire!
You are so... so... right!
I'm just spluttering into my coffee here, thinking that anybody wouldn't listen to you!
Don't they get it? It's all about respect, and patience, and honor! What is wrong with them?
Go!
Go now!
Explain to those workers I was telling you about!
I'm sure they'll listen to you and stop crossing the border!
And if you run into one or two that are obstinate, just show them a Donald Trump video!
That will convince them to stay, if nothing else will!
I'll bet they'll start pulling quarters out of their wallets to pay for the wall!
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Juvenile.
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Originally Posted by unwillingphoenician
Well, I don't mean to belittle your concerns, but I think they need to address the real issues.
The bottom line is, undocumented aliens or illegal aliens as you prefer to call them decide whether or not to come here. You can wag your finger in their faces all you want, but in the end they take the decision of whether or not to risk it all to come here. It happens in their heads, whether it's legal, illegal, or whatever. So those are the people you have to convince.
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We don't have to convince them of anything.
We need to enforce the law -- for once!
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Originally Posted by Oldglory
You are barking at the moon here trying to get any pro-illegal to come up with or to agree with any solutions posed because they want illegals to remain here. They either hire them are bleeding heart liberals or have ethnic ties to them. I know that the latter is the case here.
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Exactly. They all have an agenda. Which they try to disguise as a practical solution or high morality.
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Originally Posted by Oldglory
People with no morals, scruples and think that laws don't apply to them will never be convinced not to break the law for their own selfish gain. They don't care how their law breaking affects their victims either. If they don't have a great deal in Mexico where they hold citizenship in then they need to fight for change in Mexico instead of blaming our country for their woes and selfishly harming our own citizens by coming here illegally. As I already pointed out Mexicans and those from other Latino countries already hold the highest quotas for legal immigration into our country. Do they think that all of their needy citizens should be able to come here? What about the rest of the world's needy or don't they count? We have annual quotas for legal immigration for good reasons. Do you not understand why? We cannot be the flop house and employment agency to the whole world's poor citizens. There are and should be limits for the obvious reasons.
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Exactly.
Five billion people would be better off living here than in their own countries. But if they all moved here, they would destroy this country by sucking up all its resources -- and then they would have to flee back to where they came from.
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Originally Posted by unwillingphoenician
It's interesting that not once have you addressed the issue of NAFTA and Maquiladoras that I brought up. U.S. firms, multi-billion dollar firms, have relocated just across the border and are paying Mexican workers 55 cents an hour to produce goods that YOU buy. Then some poor sap tries to cross the border, and according to you and others on this thread he "lacks a moral compass".
Have you looked in a mirror lately?
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Nobody here advocated for NAFTA. Go talk to Bill Clinton and the democrooks. He's the one who pushed it.
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Originally Posted by BobNJ1960
LOL! Berlin Wall was 90 miles long in a urban area, built on surfaced platform.
Southern border is thousands of miles and much of it is a desert without any living creatures for stretches longer than the Berlin Wall.
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I guess you never heard of the "Iron Curtain" which extended from the north of Finland all the way to Greece. It was very effective.
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Originally Posted by Oldglory
Your solution is no solution for the American people. Where would we get the jobs and resources to take in any more immigrants legally? You didn't address that aspect.
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Indeed. We have a terrible drought in the West, but having millions more people move here is just fine.
We have unemployed Americans, but having millions more people move here is just fine.
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We tried amnesty back in 1986 and now we have at least quadruple the number of illegals here. Granting amnesty only encourages more to come to get in on the next amnesty.
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Exactly. We would be really stupid to repeat the same mistake twice.
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I don't understand why you have no compassion for our own unemployed, poor and needy who are being negatively impacted by illegal immigration.
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He only cares about himself.
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Originally Posted by Oldglory
You're lucky you haven't lost your job to an illegal alien but does that mean you have no compassion for the Americans who have such as in the construction industry just for starters just because it doesn't affect you personally?
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Yes. He's selfish and pretends that selfishness is high morality and compassion.
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No, illegal aliens coming from mostly one country and ethnic group is not diversity. We are already quite diversified in this country anyway. Doesn't matter if illegals commit crimes at a lower rate or not. None of their crimes would have been committed if they didn't come here. We have enough of our own law breakers to deal with we shouldn't have to deal with the crimes of illegal foreigners also.
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Well said.
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Originally Posted by Oldglory
You're right. Those with an agenda that wants illegals to be able to remain here continue with the same old rhetoric, denials and spinning of the truth when good solutions are brought up. They haven't an honest debating skill in their bodies.
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So true.
Trump is the only candidate who has even said he will do something serious to stop this invasion of our country.
That alone puts him miles above the other candidates.
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